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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 11:08

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 11:07

Not the etiquette to pull posts across threads. Single sex spaces are important to me. Personally though idgaf about TW using the ladies. And I'm entitled to my own view on that.

Selfish in that you don't care about those women who cannot use mixed sex spaces.

Throwing other women under a bus doesn't make you look good. But you do you.

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 11:10

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 11:08

Rude and unnecessary.

You don't get to speak for "all women" either.

I know full well there are women who cannot use mixed sex spaces, and I care about not excluding them from being able to use public toilets / changing rooms etc.

I don't care if you think I was rude. I think you're selfish. 🤷‍♀️

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 11:12

So you do think TW can be considered ‘women’ @AdamRyan

Ok, I get it now. You were pretending before

You’re perfect for Labour.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 11:14

June 2023

Less than a third of Brits say transwomen should be allowed in female-only spaces and sports

The poll, undertaken by an independent polling company, asked 1,802 adults over 18 whether organisations should be allowed to exclude men who identify as women from female-only provision in a range of situations.

It clarified that: “a transwoman is a person who is biologically male, but who identifies as a woman. They may or may not decide to have cosmetic surgery such as breast or genital surgery”.

The findings explode the myth that there is widespread support for using the law to force organisations to include males within the female category.

It’s time for the pp to retire the falsehood that ‘majority agree with them’

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 11:16

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 11:12

So you do think TW can be considered ‘women’ @AdamRyan

Ok, I get it now. You were pretending before

You’re perfect for Labour.

Edited

It’s a bit hard to keep track especially when they say ‘GC’ in other posts but TW are women in some

Yes very Labour

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 11:19

In fact the polling suggests that is the majority view.

Just so there is an attempt at clarity on these threads this isn’t correct.

SinnerBoy · 21/04/2024 11:21

I agree, a clear majority disagree, once they know it means males who retain their penii.

Snowypeaks · 21/04/2024 11:25

Swashbuckled · 21/04/2024 10:50

Just had the Labour canvasser at my door. Told him my current views and concerns about Labour. He was smiling throughout. I asked him about the smiling, explaining I felt this to be a very serious issue. And that I wanted him to take my views back with him, which he said he would.

I asked him his own view on single sex spaces. He said he didn’t feel he could have an opinion as he was a man, and it was a women’s issue. I explained why he needed to raise his awareness. He said he wasn’t aware really of the issues I was raising. He asked me if I could point him to places where he could brush up his knowledge. I think he was humouring me, and trying to present a face of amenable humility on the doorstep.

He said I was the only person to have raised this. I don’t think he took me seriously and think he saw me as some far outlier. It was disappointingly weak encounter.

Sounds very like my little chat with a local Labour canvasser. He didn't claim no-one was talking about this, but he did try to imply that it was Labour who had stopped men being routinely housed in women's prisons. Definitely attempting to humour me, though, as you say. I couldn't get through to him.
Bizarre.

WallaceinAnderland · 21/04/2024 11:30

The thing that stops me voting Labour is what they are not saying about womens rights.

All Starmer needs to do is say that women are adult human females and that they should continue to have the right to single sex services and provision separate to males that they have always had.

That's it. That's all he needs to say so why doesn't he?

What is stopping him speaking a simple truth that will win him all the votes? It seems such an obvious, easy thing to do so why isn't he doing it?

I can't figure it out, something else is going on here.

Cailleach1 · 21/04/2024 11:32

It’s almost as if there are like minded Lord Ha Ha’s who are spreading disinformation. They are simply pushing lies, using smoke and mirrors, to suit a narrative, for whatever reason. I don’t feel as generously that they are gullible, or well meaning any more. Mind you, ‘twas never well meaning towards women. In my opinion, they are just liars.

Floisme · 21/04/2024 11:38

Another point I raised with my canvasser was the party's behaviour towards Rosie Duffield and the Labour Women's Declaration. She looked slightly panic stricken and I'm not sure whether it was because she knew she didn't have a leg to stand on or because she had no idea who I was talking about.

I'm sympathetic towards canvassers because I've done it myself, but that was the stage where I'd always been instructed to say, 'If you don't mind, I'm going to make a note of what you've said and ask ..... (the candidate) to contact you.' And she didn't.

Snowypeaks · 21/04/2024 11:44

WallaceinAnderland · 21/04/2024 11:30

The thing that stops me voting Labour is what they are not saying about womens rights.

All Starmer needs to do is say that women are adult human females and that they should continue to have the right to single sex services and provision separate to males that they have always had.

That's it. That's all he needs to say so why doesn't he?

What is stopping him speaking a simple truth that will win him all the votes? It seems such an obvious, easy thing to do so why isn't he doing it?

I can't figure it out, something else is going on here.

Either he's a true believer in GI OR he doesn't think women's rights matter enough to risk antagonising the Labour genderists. Given that Wes Streeting has performed a public U-turn ("performed" being the operative word here), why couldn't his boss?

You are right to be wary.

AGlinnerOfHope · 21/04/2024 11:48

I’m getting to the point of thinking I’ll vote Tory mainly to annoy Adam.
I wish Adam would realise that the worst thing she can do for Labour is keep bigging them up. It’s proving very counterproductive.

We have mayoral elections at the moment, and the most qualified candidates by a long way are the labour and conservative ones- the others are beyond useless.
The Conservative is marginally better qualified.

WickedSerious · 21/04/2024 12:06

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 10:31

Starmer has used two conflicting lines

The adult female one and penis one. Which one is the lie?

And he’s very keen not to see the issue raised with the ‘no one’s talking about it’ line

The very last thing he wants to do is respond accurately to direct questions

Edited

There's more backbone in a fucking blancmange.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 12:11

WickedSerious · 21/04/2024 12:06

There's more backbone in a fucking blancmange.

Haha made me laugh

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:17

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2024 10:45

I've always found Labour's long held stance of 'well, we might be better than the Tories so vote for us, you thickos!' to be utterly bizarre.

No inspiring policies. Very few politicians that you think 'I'm proud that you're my representative'.

No, no. Just 'we're a bit less shit than the Tories. Maybe. If we can magic up money from somewhere.'

It really doesn't inspire a poster, does it?

It really is my problem.

If your selling point is, not being as shit as the others, then you don't even have your own identity! You are defined by the other lot not your own policies.

We should be able to vote FOR someone not AGAINST someone.

Is it really that hard to have a pro-woman stance and to acknowledge that the law has been Stonewalled leading to women's legal rights being fundamentally undermined and not upheld.

Human Rights are about balancing the competiting needs of different groups - it is not a hierachry. There are explicit exceptions which are being outright ignored.

And then we have law conflicts like how a bepenised 'woman' in a changing room can't be challenged cos 'transphobia', but a man who did the same could be arrested under laws surrounding sexual offenses for vouyerism or flashing and no one can grasp that self ID has inheritant problems. This of course is against a backdrop of rape effectively being decriminalised because of the rate of conviction and the lack of faith/trust/etc of women in the system believing them.

So yes, even 1% of women having a penis is a problem for me for two reasons: the first is about misognyy and abuse of women, homophobia and general toxicity of allowing men to tell women what a woman is and women not having their own agency to define themselves
the second is rather more practical in terms of not wishing to vote for any party which can't understand good law making principles, and instead having ideas with not much thought given to practical implications and the ramifications of poor law.

This is bad law, which will effect those at the bottom most and is about the state harming the people - the very nexus of why human rights laws were invented.

The latter is really problematic for me, because it affects everything. I don't appreciate the dishonesty.

Bobbotgegrinch · 21/04/2024 12:23

I completely understand why a lot of women feel they can't vote for labour over this. What I really can't understand is why they'd vote Tory instead?

The Tory's have absolutely no intention of fixing this. They can't, they need it as a wedge issue to use at the next election, and the one after that....

This and immigration are the only things they have going for them, which is why they're not actually planning to fix that either. Make a huge song and dance about the Rwanda flights, blame it on everyone else when immigration keeps increasing. If they actually fixed it then they'd have nothing left to campaign on. It's the same with the issues around women's spaces etc, they'll talk about it loads, but do fuck all. Hell, most of this shit has happened on their watch.

I actually trust labour on this more than them, at least they're starting to show they can shift their thinking when they're out of sync with the public.

CocoapuffPuff · 21/04/2024 12:31

Why do you assume women refusing to vote Labour will vote tory?

There's rather a large number of women on this very thread stating they have nobody to vote for.

Self included.

Nobody.

You're assuming an awful lot, especially when it's on this thread in black and white.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Floisme · 21/04/2024 12:36

I'm not engaging with anyone else on this thread who implies that, because I've lost patience with Labour, I'm going to vote Tory. I think it's pointless.

ATerrorofLeftovers · 21/04/2024 12:38

WickedSerious · 21/04/2024 12:06

There's more backbone in a fucking blancmange.

🤣 Nailed it!

I was desperately hoping for a Starmer leadership throughout the Corbyn era. I thought he’d be intelligent, principled, decent and able to communicate clearly and well with the public. I was overjoyed when he got the leadership. At last, we’d have someone who’d ensure Labour would have sensible policies and be able to beat the Tories. What a fucking let down.

I didn’t expect an egregious wet windsock, who’d sell women down the river.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:39

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 11:07

Not the etiquette to pull posts across threads. Single sex spaces are important to me. Personally though idgaf about TW using the ladies. And I'm entitled to my own view on that.

This illustrates my above point perfectly.

You know that thing that militant Labour supports say about Tories being 'alright jack as long as you have everything who cares about the rest of us' and they get very animated and vocal about it.

Well that.

Then going and saying you don't give a fuck about any other woman who may have legitimate reason to care about privacy, dignity and safeguarding because your perfectly happy and everyone else should be too, cos I'm alright Jack.

Its the stench of hypocrisy that alienates and winds people up.

I don't just see the selfishness. Its the evangelical moralistic lecturing that procedes it thats the truly problematic bit.

Its UGLY.

And totally lacking in self awareness.

WallaceinAnderland · 21/04/2024 12:40

I completely understand why a lot of women feel they can't vote for labour over this. What I really can't understand is why they'd vote Tory instead?

I'm only doing it to keep Labour out if possible. If they still win then I hope that enough sensible people are talking about it now to prevent Labour bringing in self ID and all the other nonsense they promised but now have, thankfully, flip flopped over.

If we don't get this fundamental issue sorted, everything else is negatively affected for women.

NHS - no single sex services or safeguarding for women
Schools - no single sex provision or safeguarding for girls
Sports - no single sex sports for women
Toilets/changing areas - no single sex provision for the privacy, safety and dignity of women
Work - no protection for people who don't believe in GI, no female only jobs
Clubs - no single sex safeguarding for girls
Prisons - no single sex safeguarding for women
All women shortlists - no longer single sex
The list goes on...

Everything about GI, absolutely all of it, has a negative impact on women.

CocoapuffPuff · 21/04/2024 12:41

Idgaf about other women IS rather exposing, isn't it?

Probably more than that individual meant to say.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:42

CocoapuffPuff · 21/04/2024 12:41

Idgaf about other women IS rather exposing, isn't it?

Probably more than that individual meant to say.

Yep.

Its VERY revealling.

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