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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
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15
ATerrorofLeftovers · 21/04/2024 12:42

Floisme · 21/04/2024 12:36

I'm not engaging with anyone else on this thread who implies that, because I've lost patience with Labour, I'm going to vote Tory. I think it's pointless.

Unfortunately, some people are so limited and binary in their thinking, that no matter how many times you tell them you’re not a Tory voter, or how justified your criticisms of Labour are, they can’t get their skulls around the idea. It’s quite sad in a way, but also infuriating and a prime example of why we’re in the mess we’re in with politics.

Frustratingly, they tend to be very dominant on certain threads, shouting and not listening.

Floisme · 21/04/2024 12:42

Back to the subject of this thread, my own experience is that the reason Labour seem to struggle with a pro-women stance is because there's a deeply engrained view that, if only 'real Labour' policies can be enacted then women's rights and needs will fix themselves.

If you go along with that view - as many women do and indeed I did myself for quite a long time - then you're ok. But if you start dissenting then you're treated - at best - with thinly disguised exasperation for rocking the boat.

You see the same attitude on pretty much every thread I've come across on this topic.

ATerrorofLeftovers · 21/04/2024 12:43

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:17

It really is my problem.

If your selling point is, not being as shit as the others, then you don't even have your own identity! You are defined by the other lot not your own policies.

We should be able to vote FOR someone not AGAINST someone.

Is it really that hard to have a pro-woman stance and to acknowledge that the law has been Stonewalled leading to women's legal rights being fundamentally undermined and not upheld.

Human Rights are about balancing the competiting needs of different groups - it is not a hierachry. There are explicit exceptions which are being outright ignored.

And then we have law conflicts like how a bepenised 'woman' in a changing room can't be challenged cos 'transphobia', but a man who did the same could be arrested under laws surrounding sexual offenses for vouyerism or flashing and no one can grasp that self ID has inheritant problems. This of course is against a backdrop of rape effectively being decriminalised because of the rate of conviction and the lack of faith/trust/etc of women in the system believing them.

So yes, even 1% of women having a penis is a problem for me for two reasons: the first is about misognyy and abuse of women, homophobia and general toxicity of allowing men to tell women what a woman is and women not having their own agency to define themselves
the second is rather more practical in terms of not wishing to vote for any party which can't understand good law making principles, and instead having ideas with not much thought given to practical implications and the ramifications of poor law.

This is bad law, which will effect those at the bottom most and is about the state harming the people - the very nexus of why human rights laws were invented.

The latter is really problematic for me, because it affects everything. I don't appreciate the dishonesty.

Agree with every word of this.

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2024 12:46

Floisme · 21/04/2024 12:42

Back to the subject of this thread, my own experience is that the reason Labour seem to struggle with a pro-women stance is because there's a deeply engrained view that, if only 'real Labour' policies can be enacted then women's rights and needs will fix themselves.

If you go along with that view - as many women do and indeed I did myself for quite a long time - then you're ok. But if you start dissenting then you're treated - at best - with thinly disguised exasperation for rocking the boat.

You see the same attitude on pretty much every thread I've come across on this topic.

It's very similar to the 'wheesht for Indy' bullshite up here.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 12:48

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 11:12

So you do think TW can be considered ‘women’ @AdamRyan

Ok, I get it now. You were pretending before

You’re perfect for Labour.

Edited

No. I don't. But I'm not going round my position again. I'm bored of saying it.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 12:49

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 11:16

It’s a bit hard to keep track especially when they say ‘GC’ in other posts but TW are women in some

Yes very Labour

I've not said TW are women. Except in a legal context and that happens to be a fact Confused

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/04/2024 12:51

It's only in any way a "fact" for those with a GRC. Most "trans women" are legally men under the Equality Act.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 12:52

AGlinnerOfHope · 21/04/2024 11:48

I’m getting to the point of thinking I’ll vote Tory mainly to annoy Adam.
I wish Adam would realise that the worst thing she can do for Labour is keep bigging them up. It’s proving very counterproductive.

We have mayoral elections at the moment, and the most qualified candidates by a long way are the labour and conservative ones- the others are beyond useless.
The Conservative is marginally better qualified.

If you want to decide your vote based on what will most annoy people on the Internet, knock yourself out.

Vote for who you like, I really don't care. I just object to the blatant misrepresentation of Labour's position that is so common on this board.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:52

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 12:49

I've not said TW are women. Except in a legal context and that happens to be a fact Confused

And you dgaf about this and how this impacts some women.

Yes we heard you the first time saying we should all stop being pathetic and suck it up.

Despite the LEGAL EXEMPTIONS and the fact that this doesn't give a legal right for males to use women spaces

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 12:53

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 12:52

If you want to decide your vote based on what will most annoy people on the Internet, knock yourself out.

Vote for who you like, I really don't care. I just object to the blatant misrepresentation of Labour's position that is so common on this board.

That last part is clearly not correct.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 12:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/04/2024 12:51

It's only in any way a "fact" for those with a GRC. Most "trans women" are legally men under the Equality Act.

Exactly eresh.

Look, I'm not arguing the law is perfect. I don't agree with it as it stands. But it's not accurate to call it "self ID" as it isn't. And no parties are planning on removing it.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 12:56

One good thing is it’s no longer possible to claim the majority want males in single sex spaces

The majority don’t want it so let’s change the law

ATerrorofLeftovers · 21/04/2024 12:58

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 12:53

That last part is clearly not correct.

I suspect the real objection is that this board puts a spotlight on Labour’s actual position.

The problem is not that we’re misrepresenting Labour, it’s that we’re publicising their actual stance and actions. And that just won’t do, as otherwise how can the wool be continued to be pulled over voter’s eyes?

Floisme · 21/04/2024 13:02

If they had a properly clear and coherent position then they wouldn't get so shirty and defensive whenever it's raised.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 21/04/2024 13:07

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:39

This illustrates my above point perfectly.

You know that thing that militant Labour supports say about Tories being 'alright jack as long as you have everything who cares about the rest of us' and they get very animated and vocal about it.

Well that.

Then going and saying you don't give a fuck about any other woman who may have legitimate reason to care about privacy, dignity and safeguarding because your perfectly happy and everyone else should be too, cos I'm alright Jack.

Its the stench of hypocrisy that alienates and winds people up.

I don't just see the selfishness. Its the evangelical moralistic lecturing that procedes it thats the truly problematic bit.

Its UGLY.

And totally lacking in self awareness.

I remember decades ago, with another election looming, saying to a friend that Labour & the Tories would both happily to see us die in the gutter but only Labour would stand over us & give us a moralising sermon as we lay there.

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 13:17

ATerrorofLeftovers · 21/04/2024 12:58

I suspect the real objection is that this board puts a spotlight on Labour’s actual position.

The problem is not that we’re misrepresenting Labour, it’s that we’re publicising their actual stance and actions. And that just won’t do, as otherwise how can the wool be continued to be pulled over voter’s eyes?

This. Ergo the ‘oh FGS, don’t be so pathetic think about the nhs, disabled, etc’

As if you can’t have more than one discussion point to vote on.

We know why people need to shut down women.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 13:19

ATerrorofLeftovers · 21/04/2024 12:58

I suspect the real objection is that this board puts a spotlight on Labour’s actual position.

The problem is not that we’re misrepresenting Labour, it’s that we’re publicising their actual stance and actions. And that just won’t do, as otherwise how can the wool be continued to be pulled over voter’s eyes?

Absolutely spot on.

Swashbuckled · 21/04/2024 13:23

@Snowypeaks

Yes, bizarre is exactly how it felt.
So very strange...

CocoapuffPuff · 21/04/2024 13:31

I'm old enough to remember when political parties knew they HAD TO WIN VOTES.

Not get in by default, by being the least awful of a terrible bunch.

Win.

By having clear goals and policies and targets, and a pretty good idea how to achieve them. By communicating that to their audience, 50% of whom were, and remain, female.

I'm seeing little clear communication and bugger all beyond "don't you worry your pretty little head about that, we'll fix YOUR problems later, once the important stuff is done" pat patting.

From women. Not just men. Women.

Not now dear, you'll get your turn later.

Oh dear, we've run out of stuff, we used it all before it was your turn.....pity. Oh well, maybe next time.

How the fuck we haven't burnt the world down is testament, truly, to social fucking conditioning.

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 13:42

I'm seeing little clear communication and bugger all beyond "don't you worry your pretty little head about that, we'll fix YOUR problems later, once the important stuff is done" pat patting.

From women. Not just men. Women.

Not now dear, you'll get your turn later.

👏👏👏

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 13:50

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 12:39

This illustrates my above point perfectly.

You know that thing that militant Labour supports say about Tories being 'alright jack as long as you have everything who cares about the rest of us' and they get very animated and vocal about it.

Well that.

Then going and saying you don't give a fuck about any other woman who may have legitimate reason to care about privacy, dignity and safeguarding because your perfectly happy and everyone else should be too, cos I'm alright Jack.

Its the stench of hypocrisy that alienates and winds people up.

I don't just see the selfishness. Its the evangelical moralistic lecturing that procedes it thats the truly problematic bit.

Its UGLY.

And totally lacking in self awareness.

I said "Personally though idgaf about TW using the ladies."

As in, if I only consider what I want, I don't care about sharing the ladies with trans women.

That is not by any stretch the same as saying "Then going and saying you don't give a fuck about any other woman who may have legitimate reason to care about privacy, dignity and safeguarding".

I find that really offensive. I'm as entitled to my personal opinion as you are.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 13:54

ATerrorofLeftovers · 21/04/2024 12:58

I suspect the real objection is that this board puts a spotlight on Labour’s actual position.

The problem is not that we’re misrepresenting Labour, it’s that we’re publicising their actual stance and actions. And that just won’t do, as otherwise how can the wool be continued to be pulled over voter’s eyes?

The "real objection" as I keep saying is this board misrepresents Labour's position and then "puts a spotlight" on the misrepresentation.

Endless threads about Labour the evil bogeyman, they will do this, they will do that, GLAAD donations, civil service capture blah blah 😴

Meanwhile God forbid anyone says anything negative about the Conservatives.

It's extremely noticeable.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 13:55

You are entitled to your opinion.

I still think 'idgaf about anyone else' is effectively totally the antithesis of what Labour values are supposedly supposed to be - about a collective responsibility to all.

Hence thinking it's selfish and hypocritical.

CocoapuffPuff · 21/04/2024 13:55

You do understand quite a few people here have said very clearly that they have nobody to vote for?

Quite how you parse that into a ringing endorsement of the Tories is a mystery.

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