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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Chersfrozenface · 21/04/2024 16:24

I don't think there is any issue with wanting to support gay people and this take on what Starmer said at the Diva event is homophobic imo.

There is no mention of the word "gay", the only term used is LGBT+ and it is obvious that the T+ is the only cohort that matters

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:25

I’m with @MrsOvertonsWindow some great posters on here.

Women who speak up and share insights. I reckon we’re getting somewhere and that ruffles people

The relentless mischaracterisation is tedious but it all seems to be from one poster.

GailBlancheViola · 21/04/2024 16:29

You trust Starmer and you believe in him Adam, I don't. I think he is weak, a coward and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Why would I vote for someone, or the Party of which he is Leader, for whom that is my opinion?

Starmer has flip flopped over the Self-Id issue and that only came about due to the Isla Bryson debacle before then he was fully on board. He cannot explicitly state how or even which woman only spaces he will protect for biological women only. It is all very well saying how gay friendly Labour are but that all rather falls apart when men are included in the definition of lesbian.

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2024 16:38

Shaunboy's always got an appropriate sketch -

https://x.com/shiny02/status/1781288977565135150

Ooh, I wonder if this will be taken as evidence of my right wingedness.

https://x.com/shiny02/status/1781288977565135150

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:48

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2024 16:38

Shaunboy's always got an appropriate sketch -

https://x.com/shiny02/status/1781288977565135150

Ooh, I wonder if this will be taken as evidence of my right wingedness.

Ha I didn’t know that guy, made me laugh

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/04/2024 16:54

GailBlancheViola · 21/04/2024 16:29

You trust Starmer and you believe in him Adam, I don't. I think he is weak, a coward and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Why would I vote for someone, or the Party of which he is Leader, for whom that is my opinion?

Starmer has flip flopped over the Self-Id issue and that only came about due to the Isla Bryson debacle before then he was fully on board. He cannot explicitly state how or even which woman only spaces he will protect for biological women only. It is all very well saying how gay friendly Labour are but that all rather falls apart when men are included in the definition of lesbian.

Joan Smith nailed it in the article:
"Leading figures in the Labour Party can’t just expect us to forgive and forget. They denied biology, failed to condemn the misogyny of trans activists and looked the other way when we were abused. Trust has to be rebuilt and we are nowhere near that yet."

It's evident they still don't get it. Too many desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights.

Lion400 · 21/04/2024 17:01

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/04/2024 16:54

Joan Smith nailed it in the article:
"Leading figures in the Labour Party can’t just expect us to forgive and forget. They denied biology, failed to condemn the misogyny of trans activists and looked the other way when we were abused. Trust has to be rebuilt and we are nowhere near that yet."

It's evident they still don't get it. Too many desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights.

Labour are indeed ‘desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights’?

My question now this is all crystal clear - is Why?

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 17:04

Lion400 · 21/04/2024 17:01

Labour are indeed ‘desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights’?

My question now this is all crystal clear - is Why?

Because in 2004 they created incredibly bad legislation which is harming women and children now and they don’t want people to talk about the reality of that.

Once people speak plainly and clearly the whole stack of lies and harm is exposed.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 17:12

Too late to add

And they are closely tied to TRA lobbyists who apply pressure

Floisme · 21/04/2024 17:18

I hadn't noticed at first but Jean Hatchet's article (link in the op) includes a further link to one by Rosie Duffield which I thoroughly recommend if anyone missed it like I did.

She takes no prisoners and says some illuminating things about Starmer's leadership style. One or two tasters:
'When Keir became leader, he promised we would always be able to approach him. But nothing could be further from the truth. The leader of the Labour Party has almost no personal contact with his backbenchers. The last message I sent to Keir, practically begging for support, was ignored.
Keir is bundled in and out of meetings before you even have a chance to say: 'Have you heard about this major medical scandal at the Tavistock clinic?'

And: 'Of course, it's not only male colleagues who have been hostile. There's a group of female MPs, some of whom have behaved appallingly.
Some have 'whispered' loudly about 'f terfs' as I walk past. Then, as our official policy appears to change, I'll see them on television saying: 'It's terribly concerning that women haven't been able to talk about this issue.' Their hypocrisy is monumental.'

And: 'At the heart of this attitude is, I believe, a deep-seated misogyny within the party.'

Yes it's the Daily Mail (Hmm why not The Guardian, some might wonder) but I recommend getting past any squeamishness to anyone who's new to the topic and trying to understand why some of us are so pissed off.

Lion400 · 21/04/2024 17:23

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 17:12

Too late to add

And they are closely tied to TRA lobbyists who apply pressure

So do you think there’s no going back for Labour? If they’re not prepared to say they made a mistake, and are not prepared to piss off wealthy donors and influential people?

Imnobody4 · 21/04/2024 17:33

Modus operandi of an Labour supporting intersectional feminist.

  1. Remove dissent. Too many radical feminists on thriving feminist board. Contact Authority to split boards.

Result-the radical board thrives attracting a wide range of political views together with varied experiences. The other board withers.

  1. Investigate what's happening on the board which was supposed to die quietly in the dark, after all they're only a bigoted minority. Oh no! There having discussions about Labour and saying things I don't agree with. Contact Authority to complain about people having a different view of Labour's policies. Authority suggest that's life get on with it.
  1. Begins to derail threads. Starts posting long posts accusing posters of being Fascist adjacent for agreeing with any idea, thought or comment not made by an intersectional feminist or approved Labour MP. At the same time accuses posters of
misrepresenting Keir Starmer who has been transformed into our glorious leader who is infinitely wise and truthful.

Posters say pull the other one.

Snowypeaks · 21/04/2024 17:50

I haven't been posting on here as long as some, so I had no idea about all that - but it explains a lot.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 17:50

Chersfrozenface · 21/04/2024 16:24

I don't think there is any issue with wanting to support gay people and this take on what Starmer said at the Diva event is homophobic imo.

There is no mention of the word "gay", the only term used is LGBT+ and it is obvious that the T+ is the only cohort that matters

I wouldn't say that's obvious at all Cher. Especially not to LGB people fearing a backlash.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 17:52

GailBlancheViola · 21/04/2024 16:29

You trust Starmer and you believe in him Adam, I don't. I think he is weak, a coward and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Why would I vote for someone, or the Party of which he is Leader, for whom that is my opinion?

Starmer has flip flopped over the Self-Id issue and that only came about due to the Isla Bryson debacle before then he was fully on board. He cannot explicitly state how or even which woman only spaces he will protect for biological women only. It is all very well saying how gay friendly Labour are but that all rather falls apart when men are included in the definition of lesbian.

Of course. That's your choice and I can see why you hold it.

localnotail · 21/04/2024 17:54

Dineasair · 21/04/2024 14:30

A fringe issue, are you kidding me? What planet are you on? Women being raped in supposedly women’s safe spaces including hospital wards, being violently attacked for saying that men are not women, children being medically experimented on, free speech being taken away to prop up a lie, safeguarding thrown out of the window, the reality of women being colonised by men. This issue goes to the core of society, the bedrock it’s founded on ffs.

I'm not denying that this is happening and or course this is mega important but in reality I'm more likely to be affected by everything I listed in my post. I think this is not something that should be a reason for selecting/ not selecting a party - I think campaigning for female rights will change the situation anyway. Especially considering the tide is turning against this nonsense anyway ( at least in Europe) and will inevitably change regardless of what party is in charge.

But no matter how much you campaign and no matter how much you nod towards Europe etc Tories will always be lying, money grabbing cheating scumbags bent on preventing ordinary working people like me having a decent life. Also, they are the shits who allowed all this crap to flourish in the first place - so this would be a double whammy for the country as far as I'm concerned.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 17:58

Imnobody4 · 21/04/2024 17:33

Modus operandi of an Labour supporting intersectional feminist.

  1. Remove dissent. Too many radical feminists on thriving feminist board. Contact Authority to split boards.

Result-the radical board thrives attracting a wide range of political views together with varied experiences. The other board withers.

  1. Investigate what's happening on the board which was supposed to die quietly in the dark, after all they're only a bigoted minority. Oh no! There having discussions about Labour and saying things I don't agree with. Contact Authority to complain about people having a different view of Labour's policies. Authority suggest that's life get on with it.
  1. Begins to derail threads. Starts posting long posts accusing posters of being Fascist adjacent for agreeing with any idea, thought or comment not made by an intersectional feminist or approved Labour MP. At the same time accuses posters of
misrepresenting Keir Starmer who has been transformed into our glorious leader who is infinitely wise and truthful.

Posters say pull the other one.

Oh for goodness sake.

I would need to have a career as a fortune teller if my original request to split the boards 7 years ago was in any way related to my posting today! I wasn't even considering voting Labour then!

As if I'm some kind of long standing Labour sleeper agent .

I am not an intersectional feminist, I'm a radical feminist. I've posted here for over 10 years.

I've not accused any posters of being fascists or anything else.

You seem strangely overinvested in attributing malign intent to someone who simply holds a different point of view Confused

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 18:02

As it seems to be coming up again, I'd also like to say my original request was purely because feminist threads about stuff other than trans were getting lost on the board. So I wanted somewhere to talk about it. Got overruled which was fine.

It was nothing to do with "hiving off" other posters.

Snowypeaks · 21/04/2024 18:07

Some questions, localnotail

So has Labour been battling gender ideology and the erosion of women's rights for the last 15 years? Has Labour been opposing the medicalisation of gnc, gay, autistic or looked-after children this whole time?

To your mind, is there any connection between the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the influx of male people in women's spaces? Or not?

Do you think that making the process of getting a GRC easier will result in more men applying for GRCs, or fewer?

Would you find it easier or harder to campaign for the rights of an oppressed group if it did not have a collective name and was not permitted to associate without members of the oppressor group present?

ifIwerenotanandroid · 21/04/2024 18:17

A funny film (especially if you lived through the 80s) & very touching...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Hopes_(1988_film)

I'm reminded of the scene with the young woman whenever Labourites come on here & try to convince us we should vote Labour. Cyril & Shirley's comments on her are exactly what those posters make me think.

High Hopes (1988 film) - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Hopes_(1988_film)

Floisme · 21/04/2024 18:59

I'm not sure where the idea that the tide is already turning in Europe has come from. I believe Germany has just legislated for self ID and only a couple of days ago I read that in Sweden the minimum age has now been lowered to 16.

Here meanwhile, the people who bullied women out of the party, and the MPs who whispered abuse at Rosie Duffield as she went past are still very much there, and I'm sure have no intention of going anywhere. Keir Starmer is still ignoring Duffield. The Labour Women's Declaration are, I understand, still waiting for a meeting. I anticipate that many if not most of the new influx of Labour MPs will either support TWAW or will keep their heads down (otherwise I very much doubt they'd have been selected).

Everyone will have to make the best decision they can - I've not even decided myself yet - but please can we not minimise the seriousness of it.

CocoapuffPuff · 21/04/2024 19:12

My belief is that anyone thinking Labour will fix this if elected is either a fantasist or foolish.

I don't know if anyone can fix it, certainly not quickly and certainly not without some seriously deep corns in many institutions being literally cut out.

i don't think it'll be fixed, not for a long time. Maybe not even in my lifetime.

Maybe I'm too jaded to feel optimistic bit honestly, some of you sound like naive teenagers just discovering Marx.

Lion400 · 21/04/2024 19:23

CocoapuffPuff · 21/04/2024 19:12

My belief is that anyone thinking Labour will fix this if elected is either a fantasist or foolish.

I don't know if anyone can fix it, certainly not quickly and certainly not without some seriously deep corns in many institutions being literally cut out.

i don't think it'll be fixed, not for a long time. Maybe not even in my lifetime.

Maybe I'm too jaded to feel optimistic bit honestly, some of you sound like naive teenagers just discovering Marx.

That’s most Labour supporters today. That’s why they always go for the yoof vote. With their sad sexist little memes.

IwantToRetire · 21/04/2024 19:43

Frustratingly, they tend to be very dominant on certain threads, shouting and not listening.

Only because other posters keep responding.

Dont reply to the bait.

The thread was set up to talk about women feel about the Labour Party. Not for it to be hijacked by people who have not interest or respect for how women feel

So this is another thread gone down the drain because one person who doesn't even think sex and gender are an issue had invaded an issue they have no interest it.

As said on other threads learning to give the cold shoulder cuts down on the endless repetitive and derailing comments.

OP posts:
WickedSerious · 21/04/2024 19:47

IwantToRetire · 21/04/2024 19:43

Frustratingly, they tend to be very dominant on certain threads, shouting and not listening.

Only because other posters keep responding.

Dont reply to the bait.

The thread was set up to talk about women feel about the Labour Party. Not for it to be hijacked by people who have not interest or respect for how women feel

So this is another thread gone down the drain because one person who doesn't even think sex and gender are an issue had invaded an issue they have no interest it.

As said on other threads learning to give the cold shoulder cuts down on the endless repetitive and derailing comments.

Well said.

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