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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
IwantToRetire · 21/04/2024 19:54

IwantToRetire · 21/04/2024 00:41

Strange isn't it that even on a forum aimed at women, that a thread that is about how women feel about the Labour Party based on the actual reality of how they have been treated and what has or hasnot been said by party leaders, there are still some who think they can come and tell women that how they think is wrong think. ie our feelings aren't real and / or we are too stupid to understand what these feelings really mean.

Let alone the fact that one contributor has now admitted they dont think sex and gender are an issue.

Next thing you now when someone starts a thread about how they feel about men after being disrespected and ignored and physically abused, there will be someone who will come along and say, aren't you silly you women, not only are you not intelligent enough to think but your emotions are also wrong.

But what is so absolutely astonishing is that if these posts aren't meant to encourage women to feel more positive about Labour they are a complete own goal.

Anyone with even a smidgeon of brain power would be thinking how can Labour engage with women who feel like this? Think about how to provide confidence in Labour.

But in fact they do the exact opposite. Confirm, as the article explained so well, Labour think women should just STFU and do what they are told. And daily bless the Labour Party for being so considerate as to allow us to be part and even vote for them.

Women know your place. Wink

Sometimes cant help feeling that these posters who pop up to admonish us for being so naughty as to question the Labour Party are in fact Tory apparatchiks fermenting dissent!!!

Just reposting what I said last night because it now seems an actual policy by some to make every thread so boring that those with a genuine experience of insight just cant be bothered with the whatabouterry. And this from someone who has stated they dont think sex and gender are important, and are happy to admit they wanted to split sex and gender off (even though it is the basis of feminist analysis) from other women's issues. But despite despising it insists on inserting themselves into an opportunity for women to share experience. I think by now we all know who the wreckers are. And there is no obligation on anyone to reply to posts that are a derail.

OP posts:
Cycleorrun · 21/04/2024 20:30

Justnot · 21/04/2024 15:21

Sinner - I know, right! I would vote communist if there was a candidate in my constituency ( I am so left-wing blah blah blah but Adam isn’t listening)

Ive got texts where I am referred to as Hanoi Jane……..

The UK Communist party appear very gc. Does that mean they've swung to the right? Very confusing!

Dineasair · 21/04/2024 20:31

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 17:04

Because in 2004 they created incredibly bad legislation which is harming women and children now and they don’t want people to talk about the reality of that.

Once people speak plainly and clearly the whole stack of lies and harm is exposed.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻nailed it.

TempestTost · 21/04/2024 20:33

Bobbotgegrinch · 21/04/2024 12:23

I completely understand why a lot of women feel they can't vote for labour over this. What I really can't understand is why they'd vote Tory instead?

The Tory's have absolutely no intention of fixing this. They can't, they need it as a wedge issue to use at the next election, and the one after that....

This and immigration are the only things they have going for them, which is why they're not actually planning to fix that either. Make a huge song and dance about the Rwanda flights, blame it on everyone else when immigration keeps increasing. If they actually fixed it then they'd have nothing left to campaign on. It's the same with the issues around women's spaces etc, they'll talk about it loads, but do fuck all. Hell, most of this shit has happened on their watch.

I actually trust labour on this more than them, at least they're starting to show they can shift their thinking when they're out of sync with the public.

Realistically it will be Labour or Conservative government, so I suppose even if they vote locally for some other candidate, the final calculation is Labour or Conservative.

The other element may be that they want to reward the direction of travel that the Tories are taking with regard to gender ideology.

But the main issue may be that the other parties are even worse than Labour on this.

IwantToRetire · 21/04/2024 20:37

But the main issue may be that the other parties are even worse than Labour on this.

And there are threads on FWR that show this sadly.

OP posts:
Bobbotgegrinch · 21/04/2024 20:39

TempestTost · 21/04/2024 20:33

Realistically it will be Labour or Conservative government, so I suppose even if they vote locally for some other candidate, the final calculation is Labour or Conservative.

The other element may be that they want to reward the direction of travel that the Tories are taking with regard to gender ideology.

But the main issue may be that the other parties are even worse than Labour on this.

Yep, the best way to try to sort this really is to try and get involved with one of the big two parties. Write to your MPs, vote in GC councillors, because a lot of them are the MPs of the future. Join your local party and get involved in the MP selection process. No one's going to replace the big 2 (although I reckon Reform might have a chance if Tory polling gets much lower!) so the best bet is to try and change them from the inside.

Dineasair · 21/04/2024 20:49

localnotail · 21/04/2024 17:54

I'm not denying that this is happening and or course this is mega important but in reality I'm more likely to be affected by everything I listed in my post. I think this is not something that should be a reason for selecting/ not selecting a party - I think campaigning for female rights will change the situation anyway. Especially considering the tide is turning against this nonsense anyway ( at least in Europe) and will inevitably change regardless of what party is in charge.

But no matter how much you campaign and no matter how much you nod towards Europe etc Tories will always be lying, money grabbing cheating scumbags bent on preventing ordinary working people like me having a decent life. Also, they are the shits who allowed all this crap to flourish in the first place - so this would be a double whammy for the country as far as I'm concerned.

Do you not realise that it was Labour who brought in the GRA in the first place? They still say they are proud of it and they will make it easier to get one, they are also pushing a ban on exploring why kids might want to do it when the Cass report calls for this very thing to be the way forward. Words fail me. It was Labour who deregulated the banks, introduced university tuition fees, and let’s not forget that the Labour Party voted with the SNP and the Greens for Self Id and for the dreadful Hate Crime Laws which they will introduce into England if they get in.

localnotail · 21/04/2024 22:02

Dineasair · 21/04/2024 20:49

Do you not realise that it was Labour who brought in the GRA in the first place? They still say they are proud of it and they will make it easier to get one, they are also pushing a ban on exploring why kids might want to do it when the Cass report calls for this very thing to be the way forward. Words fail me. It was Labour who deregulated the banks, introduced university tuition fees, and let’s not forget that the Labour Party voted with the SNP and the Greens for Self Id and for the dreadful Hate Crime Laws which they will introduce into England if they get in.

IF labour were so fucking awful when they were in power all those years ago why amazing Tories done nothing about it in 13 years they have been in power? I repeat - NOTHING. Zilch. They only made it worse. How do you justify that?

duc748 · 21/04/2024 22:16

Nobody on this thread is 'justifying' the Tory government, or singing their praises. We're talking about the Labour Party, who seem certain to form the next government.

Floisme · 21/04/2024 22:20

No thank you, there nothing that could persuade me to go back and re-join the Labour Party.

Floisme · 21/04/2024 22:26

Whoops sorry I missed a few posts Blush That was my response to a post suggesting joining them and changing from the inside. Nope, been there, tried that, won't be wasting my time again.

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 00:06

Do you not realise that it was Labour who brought in the GRA in the first place?

And do you not realise that it was a young Scottish intern that on behalf of Gordon Brown helped create the Single Sex Exemptions in the EA to accomodate the GRA. And thinks it is absolutely fabulous that she was able to gain this tiny concession for women.

Seriously I have seen her smugly saying that the SSE show how much Labour cares about women.

ie Labour thinks actual women, the biological kind, are not as important as trans women, and so the whole EA gives TW more rights than biological women.

I dont know which is worse, that it was a Labour Party concept, that it was proposed by a woman or that there is something about the Scottish education system that seems to have produced so many enabling graduates of trans rights and direct contempt for women.

OP posts:
Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 05:38

IANAL, but this is what I understand to be the case:

The EA doesn't give men who claim to be women (MCW) more rights than women. If anything it severely limits the extent to which MCW have to be treated as women. It's been misstated and misinterpreted by Stonewall et al, as has the GRA, and they have spread that misinformation through their training courses and lobbying. And until recently, the EHRC wasn't doing its job in correcting misinformation and explaining the EA properly.

Lady Haldane's judgement was surprising, but it has already been partially overturned in the Inner House and there is a good chance of the Supreme Court ruling going in favour of FWS. If it does, we will be back to the normal meaning of sex and MCW not counting as women on representation boards.

The EA makes clear that MCW are not women by defining a woman as a human female of any age. That limits the category of "woman" to women and girls. The Sex Discrimination Act had a wider definition of "woman" which could include MCW.

The SSEs also draw a distinction between MCW and women by allowing providers to exclude even MCW with a GRC from anywhere it matters. There is a bar to reach but in practice almost any circumstances in which you can exclude other men, you can exclude MCW. It's TRA training and influencing that makes people think that it's virtually impossible to do so lawfully.

Similarly, GRCs don't impose any duty on individuals or any body who is not an arm of the state. Bad training courses, unchecked by the EHRC, have spread the myth that they do.

The premise of the EA is that no-one with a PC can be excluded from anywhere or from any opportunities except in certain circumstances - the exceptios. These include the SSEs. The way the Act is drafted, ie providers may exclude men rather than must exclude, has been exploited by TRAs to emphasise that the SSEs in the EA don't confer a right to single sex spaces, which is true. But the EA does confer a right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of sex - and not providing single sex services or spaces or removing them usually is unfairly discriminatory. It's just that not enough women have taken their gym or whatever to court, unsurprisingly given the cost.

It's bad faith actors and generalised misogyny that have caused the problems, not the EA itself.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 05:44

*impose a duty on individuals or any body who is not an arm of the state
*impose a duty on anybody to ignore the person's actual sex.

(I couldn't find the source for this so I had better stick to what I remember of it)

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 08:40

So the legislation actually covers everything properly, it's just spineless organisations and govt bodies refusing to implement the legislation that is the problem?

Like politicians, etc.

So unless women withdraw their support from companies and organisations that don't follow the legislation, they've no reason go change and do what they're supposed to

Hence our saying we're politically homeless. With a reducing number of facilities available yo me, unless I'm prepared to prop up an illegal system. I certainly can't afford to take every shop and gym to court, can I???

I've nowhere to work out unless I'm prepared to share changing facilities with men (i am not) or pay the vast expense of a Bannatyne membership (I cannot afford it), nor can I swim (shared changing) in our council pool. I can't send my girls to guides, as there are boys in the troop. I can't even guarantee that the bra fitting in m&s is female only.

Even though legislation says otherwise, all these places just cannot bring themselves to treat me like a full human being.

So I don't support them. Of course, that means I myself go without, but then who cares about that? I'm just a woman.

SinnerBoy · 22/04/2024 09:01

Cycleorrun · Yesterday 20:30

The UK Communist party appear very gc. Does that mean they've swung to the right? Very confusing!

Yes, they're busy polishing their Swastikas as I write...

Datun · 22/04/2024 09:36

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 08:40

So the legislation actually covers everything properly, it's just spineless organisations and govt bodies refusing to implement the legislation that is the problem?

Like politicians, etc.

So unless women withdraw their support from companies and organisations that don't follow the legislation, they've no reason go change and do what they're supposed to

Hence our saying we're politically homeless. With a reducing number of facilities available yo me, unless I'm prepared to prop up an illegal system. I certainly can't afford to take every shop and gym to court, can I???

I've nowhere to work out unless I'm prepared to share changing facilities with men (i am not) or pay the vast expense of a Bannatyne membership (I cannot afford it), nor can I swim (shared changing) in our council pool. I can't send my girls to guides, as there are boys in the troop. I can't even guarantee that the bra fitting in m&s is female only.

Even though legislation says otherwise, all these places just cannot bring themselves to treat me like a full human being.

So I don't support them. Of course, that means I myself go without, but then who cares about that? I'm just a woman.

Indeed. I would like to see it more generally understood that the likes of Marks & Spencer, for instance, are completely within their legal right to exclude men who claim they are women, from the women's changing room.

If they won't do it, headlines could say so, so that women everywhere can vote with their feet, and force them into it.

it doesn't have to be Marks & Spencer. It doesn't have to be anywhere specific.

Just a journalist publicising it.

Or a politician.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 09:42

Actually I disagree about this thread going down the drain. Not only has it been immensely satisfying to vent, I think it's been a text book demonstration of what to expect in Labour circles if you depart from the view that, 'A-real-Labour-government-will-make-life-better-for-everyone-including-women-so-why-are-you-complaining-are-you-sure-you're-not-a-Tory?-hey-everyone-she's-a-Tory'.

TempestTost · 22/04/2024 10:41

It's not very common for a new party in government to just go right ahead and repeal something done or created by the last government, even if they opposed it directly. Which is probably a good thing or you'd have legislation flip flopping all over the place and it wouldn't be good for anyone.

I don't think many people appreciated the extent of the problems the GRA would cause, least of all Labour. The few people who did anticipate it seemed to mainly be Tories in the HoL. But most didn't.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 10:53

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 05:38

IANAL, but this is what I understand to be the case:

The EA doesn't give men who claim to be women (MCW) more rights than women. If anything it severely limits the extent to which MCW have to be treated as women. It's been misstated and misinterpreted by Stonewall et al, as has the GRA, and they have spread that misinformation through their training courses and lobbying. And until recently, the EHRC wasn't doing its job in correcting misinformation and explaining the EA properly.

Lady Haldane's judgement was surprising, but it has already been partially overturned in the Inner House and there is a good chance of the Supreme Court ruling going in favour of FWS. If it does, we will be back to the normal meaning of sex and MCW not counting as women on representation boards.

The EA makes clear that MCW are not women by defining a woman as a human female of any age. That limits the category of "woman" to women and girls. The Sex Discrimination Act had a wider definition of "woman" which could include MCW.

The SSEs also draw a distinction between MCW and women by allowing providers to exclude even MCW with a GRC from anywhere it matters. There is a bar to reach but in practice almost any circumstances in which you can exclude other men, you can exclude MCW. It's TRA training and influencing that makes people think that it's virtually impossible to do so lawfully.

Similarly, GRCs don't impose any duty on individuals or any body who is not an arm of the state. Bad training courses, unchecked by the EHRC, have spread the myth that they do.

The premise of the EA is that no-one with a PC can be excluded from anywhere or from any opportunities except in certain circumstances - the exceptios. These include the SSEs. The way the Act is drafted, ie providers may exclude men rather than must exclude, has been exploited by TRAs to emphasise that the SSEs in the EA don't confer a right to single sex spaces, which is true. But the EA does confer a right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of sex - and not providing single sex services or spaces or removing them usually is unfairly discriminatory. It's just that not enough women have taken their gym or whatever to court, unsurprisingly given the cost.

It's bad faith actors and generalised misogyny that have caused the problems, not the EA itself.

That's my understanding too which is partly why I support Labour's position go better educate on using the EA properly rather than any rewriting of the EA. I am genuinely worried about the very capitalist sector of the Conservatives using a "review" of the EA to further strip protections. They have already shown they couldn't care less about disabled people and don't buy the concept of racial discrimination.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 10:57

TempestTost · 22/04/2024 10:41

It's not very common for a new party in government to just go right ahead and repeal something done or created by the last government, even if they opposed it directly. Which is probably a good thing or you'd have legislation flip flopping all over the place and it wouldn't be good for anyone.

I don't think many people appreciated the extent of the problems the GRA would cause, least of all Labour. The few people who did anticipate it seemed to mainly be Tories in the HoL. But most didn't.

I don't think so either. Because who could have predicted smart phones, Tumblr and social contagion in 2004?

Looking at my children, I'm hopeful we are coming out of the other side. They all seem to be sex realists so hopefully numbers of children transitioning will decline.

I'd still like to see the GRA amended so that people with a GRC have to declare it in specific circumstances, with it being protected like any other sensitive personal data.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 10:59

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 05:38

IANAL, but this is what I understand to be the case:

The EA doesn't give men who claim to be women (MCW) more rights than women. If anything it severely limits the extent to which MCW have to be treated as women. It's been misstated and misinterpreted by Stonewall et al, as has the GRA, and they have spread that misinformation through their training courses and lobbying. And until recently, the EHRC wasn't doing its job in correcting misinformation and explaining the EA properly.

Lady Haldane's judgement was surprising, but it has already been partially overturned in the Inner House and there is a good chance of the Supreme Court ruling going in favour of FWS. If it does, we will be back to the normal meaning of sex and MCW not counting as women on representation boards.

The EA makes clear that MCW are not women by defining a woman as a human female of any age. That limits the category of "woman" to women and girls. The Sex Discrimination Act had a wider definition of "woman" which could include MCW.

The SSEs also draw a distinction between MCW and women by allowing providers to exclude even MCW with a GRC from anywhere it matters. There is a bar to reach but in practice almost any circumstances in which you can exclude other men, you can exclude MCW. It's TRA training and influencing that makes people think that it's virtually impossible to do so lawfully.

Similarly, GRCs don't impose any duty on individuals or any body who is not an arm of the state. Bad training courses, unchecked by the EHRC, have spread the myth that they do.

The premise of the EA is that no-one with a PC can be excluded from anywhere or from any opportunities except in certain circumstances - the exceptios. These include the SSEs. The way the Act is drafted, ie providers may exclude men rather than must exclude, has been exploited by TRAs to emphasise that the SSEs in the EA don't confer a right to single sex spaces, which is true. But the EA does confer a right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of sex - and not providing single sex services or spaces or removing them usually is unfairly discriminatory. It's just that not enough women have taken their gym or whatever to court, unsurprisingly given the cost.

It's bad faith actors and generalised misogyny that have caused the problems, not the EA itself.

Is this where “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” is relevant?

In which case it sounds like the courts would be asked to decide on any challenge

Has there been a case yet? I don’t think there has from women, but if men were excluded they may do so

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 11:02

I'm not voting for a party that can't define what I am. Simples.