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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bondi killings

222 replies

BeagleMum2024 · 14/04/2024 07:25

Been thinking about this horrendous incident. Why do innocents have to suffer ( majority female victims it appears) because a man has lost control of himself? Why didn't this nasty man just fuck somewhere and end himself quietly? I keep looking at photos of the mother who has been murdered and my thoughts are with her baby who is fighting for his or her life, and of course the other victims and their families.

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EasternStandard · 15/04/2024 08:15

HoppingPavlova · 15/04/2024 08:10

I’m not trying to silence you. You are trying to silence me. You neck or not, would this have happened if he had of been receiving appropriate services/care for his uncontrolled mental illness? I don’t think it would but you do so we differ in opinion. You don’t own the internet. You can’t police who posts where. You don’t own forums.

I stand by the fact that with appropriate mental care this could have been prevented, and that’s where the focus should be on preventing such things in future.

I don’t think it’s ’feminist BS’ particularly when the targeting of women has been mentioned in news headlines as part of police investigation

’Self serving’ is also an odd take.

bluecomputerscreen · 15/04/2024 08:31

This reply has been withdrawn

Message withdrawn - posted on wrong thread

nothingsforgotten · 15/04/2024 09:08

This reply has been deleted

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EasternStandard · 15/04/2024 09:12

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Why do you think it’s part of the police investigation?

It’s not just the feminist board on mn looking at this

Police believe killer Joel Cauchi was 'targeting women' when he fatally stabbed six people in a horror rampage at Westfield Bondi Junction, the NSW Police Commissioner said.

'It's obvious to me... The offender focused on women and avoided the men,' Commissioner Webb told the ABC on Monday

BeagleMum2024 · 15/04/2024 10:10

Hatred of men? How disingenuous of you. We have every right to discuss male violence and call it out. The impact of it is catastrophic and devastating. I'm not going to stop talking about it, however inconvenient it may be to some.

If you don't like it, then tough. Go whinge elsewhere. Maybe start your own thread?

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NefertitiV · 15/04/2024 10:22

@EasternStandard

Police believe killer Joel Cauchi was 'targeting women' when he fatally stabbed six people in a horror rampage at Westfield Bondi Junction, the NSW Police Commissioner said.

The Commissioner also said that is one of their lines of inquiry. If is too early in the investigation to confirm anything of the sort. If he was targeting women, then the inquiry would need to establish why. Was that deliberate ideation? Was it a it case of going for the weak over the strong? Was he targeting wealthy-looking people? (Bondi Junction is a more affluent area of Sydney, and this is reflected in the people that shop there.)

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/04/2024 10:36

We are talking about a male killer who, police believe, was targeting women. It's not the first crime of this type and sadly won't be the last. "Incel culture", for want of a better phrase, is a recognised motive for men carrying out mass attacks on predominantly female victims.

If we move away from the motive and look at similar mass attacks where the attacker did not seem to discriminate between potential victims in such an obvious way, there is still an undeniable pattern that mass murderers are almost always male.

Check this out:

Female mass murderers.

Although Wikipedia isn't a wholly reliable source and there may be examples missing, this list strikes me as very short.

Then you go and read some of these cases and a few points are striking.

  1. Some of these go back a very long way. One of these women was a slave who was executed in 1828.
  2. A significant number of names on this list are women who were convicted of war crimes for their role in the Holocaust. Terrible, yes, but doesn't fit the same pattern we are seeing here.
  3. Of the names remaining on the list, most of them were not acting alone, but alongside a male accomplice. Shabnam Ali, for example, murdered seven members of her own family acting alongside her male lover. So again, doesn't fit this pattern.
  4. Of the names still remaining, there is usually an obvious motive for the murders. For example, Nasra Yussef carried out an arson attack at her husband's wedding to his second wife. Again, doesn't fit the pattern.
  5. We also see a small number of women involved in Islamic terrorist attacks.

Has there ever been a female "lone wolf" attacker, who carried out random attacks on people just going about their lives?

I have never heard of one.

This is a male crime, and in this instance it seems to have been deliberately targeted towards female victims.

Sall Grover has pointed out the irony of the police being so clear about this when technically, the concept of male and female no longer really exists in Australian law.

Category:Female mass murderers - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Female_mass_murderers

DialSquare · 15/04/2024 10:45

This is what his parents have said.

Westfield knifeman's parents break silence
mol.im/a/13308575

When I first saw a video on Saturday of him walking through the shopping centre and people were running from him, there was a fairly big man standing his ground. The killer looked at him and walked on. I thought that was strange at the time.

BobShark · 15/04/2024 10:54

BeagleMum2024 · 15/04/2024 07:59

It's all coming out now in news articles - he was an incel, hated women.

Enough of the self serving bs attempts at silencing us from stating this fact.

This is absolutely untrue.

If anything, we are hearing a story of a man with schizophrenia who was failed by the medical system. Who was off his medication and socially isolated and living out of his car.

Have you watched the press release from his poor mother?

In no way am I condoning anything he has done before it is suggested otherwise, two of the victims are known within my social circle and it's been a horrific few days for us all.

However this kind of false news/narrative from you is shameful and I feel I need to call it out.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/04/2024 10:57

BeagleMum2024 · 15/04/2024 10:10

Hatred of men? How disingenuous of you. We have every right to discuss male violence and call it out. The impact of it is catastrophic and devastating. I'm not going to stop talking about it, however inconvenient it may be to some.

If you don't like it, then tough. Go whinge elsewhere. Maybe start your own thread?

Absolutely

What's that awful stat of how many workmen are killer every week in the uk by a male partner (3 I believe )?

I think it's quite clear that mens hatred of women is the bigger problem than women in a feminist board having had enough of the fact that fuck all is done about this problem. But yes absolutely we're all man hating feminists Confused

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/04/2024 10:59

@BobShark I'm so sorry. I can't imagine what this must be like to be so close to Flowers

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/04/2024 11:00

He did target mainly women though. This is not just a chance happening

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/04/2024 11:01

Sorry that previous post should have read women killed by men.

GoodnightAdeline · 15/04/2024 11:09

The state of his mental health or whatever is immaterial. The outcome is the same - dead women, on purpose. The intricacies of why he selected them to kill or what his exact state of mind was, is irrelevant now. Like I said, the outcome is the same as all the others - dead women, killed on purpose, by a man. And of course one man was killed, who tried to intervene heroically, but as I read it he wasn’t a target.

MarieDeGournay · 15/04/2024 11:11

Look - he it was obvious from the beginning that he targeted women; it appears that he has a mental illness; misogyny is so embedded in our society that it results in perfectly healthy men murdering women, and may also feed into the symptoms of a man suffering from a mental illness so that he too murders women.

There's no contradiction in saying that male violence is responsible for the deaths of a horrific number of women, and also saying that this individual may have been acting under the influence of an illness. Schizophrenia is a cruel illness, as anyone affected by it knows. People with MH issues are not violent, but some illnesses can drive people beyond rationality to violence.
The killer's criminal responsibility would have been determined at trial. They might have found him not ill and just another evil murdering misogynistic man; they may have found him so ill that he was not responsible for his actions.

Saying that does not make me less passionate about stopping male violence against women and children, OK?

GoodnightAdeline · 15/04/2024 11:15

If I were to play amateur psychologist I would say men target women because they blame them for their disillusionment and self imposed alienation. Women are ‘supposed’ to symbolise care, maternal love, empathy and softness. If men feel their lives are devoid of this and ‘nobody cares about or accepts me sob sob’ they tend to turn on women as a whole because they blame them.

HoppingPavlova · 15/04/2024 11:16

Well for a coward, killing slight women (notice none looked like weight lifters), children, and the elderly would make perfect sense. Because you would have more chance of success, they are unlikely to be able to fight back and overpower you. Essentially a coward targeting the weak, because they don’t want a built woman or regular man to stop them by beating the shit out of them. That’s common sense. He backed off from the majority of men and actively ran away from some, not because he thought men were absolutely brill and were ‘the brotherhood’ but because he thought they would beat the shit out of him, which most regular Australian men would have given the chance and he had many running after him trying to do just that. They were not cheering him on🙄.

changeofusername · 15/04/2024 11:16

Personally I don't think he was seeing people or the same reality everyone else was... I think this is psychosis and drugs combining

He was stumbling around on cctv a few hours before the attacks

I think he may well have been influenced by incel culture but the only way my brain can even comprehend a person stabbing a baby is that they're not seeing a baby at the time but hallucinating an extremely different reality

But I could just be sanitising his motives bc it's very difficult for the majority battling MH conditions like schizophrenia who would not be violent ever to cope with when violent crime happens from MH being untreated at the time

Death by cop is also a way people suicide and his parents said something that to me sounded telling... like they'd been scared of accessing help previously thinking he'd be killed if they did...

We can all in hindsight wish he was hospitalised beforehand... but he hadn't any criminal record so he needed sectioning and someone living rough is likely to fall through cracks and stop engaging with support services and be harder to trace

Idk what the answer is, I can only guess at reasons for this senseless tragedy and how it could be prevented in future and I find that more terrifying than a clear cut explanation for his actions

NotBadConsidering · 15/04/2024 11:16

Both things are true. His mental health was poor, he had untreated schizophrenia, and he targeted women. His father described him as being desperate for a girlfriend but had no social skills. That’s an incel.

This is the danger of incel culture; the mentally unstable or nasty vindictive men will inevitably carry out violent crime against women because of their developed hatred of women. How that hatred developed - whether it was there and his schizophrenia enlarged it or his schizophrenia led to grabbing these ideas - is up for debate and will be hard to establish.

But both things are true.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/04/2024 11:19

It can be simultaneously true that this man was failed by the medical system and that this attack is part of an overall pattern of male violence against women and girls.

Why don't women with schizophrenia who fail to take their meds carry out attacks like this?

Do only men get the kind of schizophrenia which might lead someone to carry out a senseless attack like this?

Does schizophrenia manifest itself differently in women?

Is this unfortunately a perfect storm of psychiatric illness AND incel culture which leads men who cannot get women to be interested in them to carry out atrocities like this?

Even if we are able to carry out research to better understand the causes is there anything that can be done to prevent knife attacks? It's much easier to ban guns than to ban knives, which many people legitimately need to use.

Having heard his parents giving their statement to the press, I tend to favour the perfect storm theory. His schizophrenia made him a loner who was unable to relate to others and unable to get a girlfriend because women unsurprisingly prefer men who are mentally stable. Being a loner probably drove him towards toxic incel culture on the internet, creating a sense of entitlement to love and sex and anger towards women in general who were denying him what he believed he deserved by not being interested in him. These feelings of anger combined with his unmedicated schizophrenia explain why he did what he did.

I felt quite uncomfortable watching that video of his parents. They should be being supported by a police liaison officer and giving any statements they wish to make in an official setting, not being collared by journalists in their own garden.

BeagleMum2024 · 15/04/2024 11:22

I find the targeting of a mother and her child to be very symbolic of his hatred.

A pathetic and hateful individual.

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GoodnightAdeline · 15/04/2024 11:41

The video of his father sobbing is awful. I hope the press behave tastefully and wait for official statements rather than ambushing them when they’re clearly in a frail state. They mustn’t blame themselves - he was their child but he was a grown man, and there was only so much they could do.

Brefugee · 15/04/2024 12:03

I feel very sorry for his poor parents. As well, of course, for all the victims

PerkingFaintly · 15/04/2024 12:04

What on earth is the weird attempt on this thread to make it an "either/or" between mental illness and violent misogyny?

As was said after a bloke in the US tried to assassinate Congresswoman Giffords and killed 6 other people, folk who promulgate hate-filled ideologies need to be aware that their words will fall on the hinged and unhinged alike.

NB That isn't a comment on this specific attack, as I'm not sure we know enough yet.

Flowers to MNers in Sydney, especially those personally affected.

Cazpar · 15/04/2024 12:12

Why don't women with schizophrenia who fail to take their meds carry out attacks like this?

Women with schizophrenia can and do carry out attacks like this.

In the last few years in the UK alone:

  • Emma Borowy stabbed a man to death in a park in Sheffield in 2023.
  • Heaven Belal decapitated her brother in 2021.
  • Eltiona Skana stabbed 7 year old Emily Jones (not known to her) to death in a park in 2020.
  • Zara Radcliffe beat a man to death in a Co-op in 2020 after she had tried to stab him and other shoppers with a knife.

Schizophrenia is terrifying. It is certainly relevant that this man suffered from it and was not taking his medication.