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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Older generations show resistance to trans rights

1000 replies

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 22:36

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

OP posts:
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30
ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 19:42

OvaHere · 08/04/2024 19:07

Some are overwhelmingly specific to one sex. I can't ever recall having read a report about hidden spy cameras/peeping in bathrooms and changing rooms and the perp being a women (an actual woman).

There is data on that.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1079063214525645

'a significantly greater proportion of men reported arousal to activities related to voyeurism, fetishism, sadism, biastophilia, and urophilia compared with women (all ps < .05). A greater proportion of men were also more likely to endorse items related to frotteurism, hebephilia, and pedophilia compared with women (all ps > .05 and < .10). Similar proportions of men and women reported being aroused by activities involving exhibitionism, scatologia, transvestic fetishism, masochism, scatophilia, and zoophilia (all ps > .10).'

RedToothBrush · 08/04/2024 19:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 19:44

You kind of need to look for older research, of course, given that in teh past few years the words 'men' and 'women' have lost all meaning and can now mean 'men and women who say they are men' and 'women and men who say they are women'.

ZsaZsaTheCat · 08/04/2024 19:52

KellieJaysLapdog · 08/04/2024 19:38

Are you only interested in toilets or in voyeurism in mixed sex spaces for undressing and toileting more generally?

I made the point that unisex toilets are a good solution and you stated that unisex toilets led to a rise in sexual assault. But this was disingenuous because your ‘ evidence’ refers to changing rooms not toilets. So you need to be very careful with these sweeping statements that you can’t back up.

Abeona · 08/04/2024 19:52

Oh, do we have a TRA who thinks calling us terfs will make us feel bad? Have we slipped back in time to 2016?

KellieJaysLapdog · 08/04/2024 19:55

ZsaZsaTheCat · 08/04/2024 19:52

I made the point that unisex toilets are a good solution and you stated that unisex toilets led to a rise in sexual assault. But this was disingenuous because your ‘ evidence’ refers to changing rooms not toilets. So you need to be very careful with these sweeping statements that you can’t back up.

You’ve mixed me up with someone else, mate.

I just added a helpful link.

KellieJaysLapdog · 08/04/2024 19:56

ZsaZsaTheCat · 08/04/2024 19:52

I made the point that unisex toilets are a good solution and you stated that unisex toilets led to a rise in sexual assault. But this was disingenuous because your ‘ evidence’ refers to changing rooms not toilets. So you need to be very careful with these sweeping statements that you can’t back up.

Here you go, dude.

Older generations show resistance to trans rights
WitchyWitcherson · 08/04/2024 19:56

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 19:44

You kind of need to look for older research, of course, given that in teh past few years the words 'men' and 'women' have lost all meaning and can now mean 'men and women who say they are men' and 'women and men who say they are women'.

Haha this reminds me of a few weeks ago when someone said "countries with self ID also have the best outcomes for women!"

I mean of course they do if you're counting men in your statistics 😂

DetOliviaBenson · 08/04/2024 19:59

GoonieGang · 08/04/2024 18:08

I feel you want to goad me.
I have not thought about it is my honest answer.
In my SS case him living as a man hasn’t honestly changed much from his family perspective. He has always been ‘one of the lads’ he’s has never had close female friends. He has never worn a dress (apart from at my birthday which I feel a bit bad about) he even wore a suit not a bridesmaid dress.
Up until he developed facial hair, people who didn’t know him would refer to him as her. It’s very difficult/disheartening for people to refer to their biological gender but obviously very natural and normal.

I'm not intentionally goading you. I've just never had anyone able to answer that question (and the reverse for men). People say it a lot and I'd genuinely like to know what they think living as the opposite sex means.

The way you describe your child could be an almost exact description of both my daughters. Neither has worn a skirt/dress since they were in nursery and both chose to wear trouser suits to my sister's wedding.

I hope your child can find some peace without needing to go all the way to having surgery.

RebelliousCow · 08/04/2024 20:00

GoonieGang · 08/04/2024 18:57

I get what you’re saying, it’s just not a viewpoint I hold. Women can also have fetishes and be voyeurs. Kinks like that are not gender specific.

Not really! It is men that are absolutely and overwhelmingly voyeurs and fetishists.

If women have fetishes - they tend to keep them private.

RedToothBrush · 08/04/2024 20:01

Abeona · 08/04/2024 19:52

Oh, do we have a TRA who thinks calling us terfs will make us feel bad? Have we slipped back in time to 2016?

It would appear so.

I mean then even admitting that they were trying to score points by using the word when they never have before.

That was particularly beautiful in demonstrating a lack of understanding of where the conversation is at and a lack of understanding between the concepts of ideology and belief and facts.

This is primary school level stuff.

GoonieGang · 08/04/2024 20:02

sanluca · 08/04/2024 19:41

So I got deleted for using the same terminology the Dutch government uses. Stupid.

So again, removing the word that means removing certain male organs that leaves a person infertile..


As I said, I wouldn’t have an issue with it. I’d rather be on a hospital ward with a 6.4 fully transitioned female than one who still had a penis.

So this suggestion is that if a man has had fully genital surgery, they should be allowed all access to womens spaces, sports. Just to show how this leads to a sliding scale, in the country I currently live the law was that when you had had genital surgery, you could change your registrated sex.
This worked pretty ok, except sports, but it was then portrayed by the Stonewall org here that this 'requirement' was inhumane to demand and men who had not had surgery should also be allowed the same 'right' if they had a medical diagnosis. The government even apologised for demanding men sterilise themselves before they were allowed to change their sex registration. Completely ignoring the law was intended the other way round: to give a person the right to hide their sex after they had genital surgery, not demanding genital surgery to be allowed to hide your sex.

Then the process of medical diagnosis was inhumane and self id was proposed. And on and on it shifts. With zero thought to women and girls already using the spaces and sports.

Hence the response is never should a person be allowed to lie on their sex registration. Because men will just demand more and more

No. What it’s saying is I personally wouldn’t have a problem with it.
But if you have seen my other comments I don’t agree that they should automatically have a right to access women only spaces. I acknowledge that whether it be for personal or religious reasons, some women just don’t want it.
I do not believe that because a person is transitioning they are entitled to go and do as they please.
I do not believe that misgendering is a ‘hate’ issue. It happens all the time, deal with it.
I do believe that if someone is insistent on changing gender, they can do so without a witch hunt and to be accused of automatically being an abusive pervert.
The prominent trans activists on SM are not representative of the trans person I know. And yes, in my view, they do more harm than good.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/04/2024 20:02

Women can also have fetishes and be voyeurs. Kinks like that are not gender specific.

They're not "gender specific" no, but any sort of non consensual fetish is overwhelmingly likely to be practiced by men, and women are overwhelmingly likely to be the victims.

WeaselCheeks · 08/04/2024 20:02

I (early 40s) used to be unquestioningly supportive of trans rights. Live and let live, if someone feels like they were born in the wrong body let them change that, they just want to get on with things, etc.
But the more vocal certain activists got, and the more stuff that was demanded, the more I started questioning.

  • How can someone say that they want to be a woman, but reject reassignment surgery because they're OK with having a penis? By the same token, how can a transman ever even contemplate giving birth?
  • Why is identifying as a different sex supposed to be accepted, but identifying as a different race massively taboo?
  • If we accept that anyone should be identified as the sex they say they are, how do we prevent the weirdos and perverts from exploiting it? I have every sympathy for people diagnosed with genuine gender dysphoria, but not to the point we need to throw open the doors unquestioningly. I'm also not sure if saying, "Sure, switch genders!" is the correct approach medically, as opposed to treating it as a mental health disorder. I don't think that the NHS would be rushing to amputate my limbs if I said I identified as an amputee.
  • Do we throw biology out of the window? We are a sexually binary species, and a sexually dimorphic one. There are intersex folk, but that's because something went wrong with their development. Some people are born with missing limbs, some lose them through accidents - it doesn't mean that as a species humans have a variable number of limbs - we're bipeds.
  • How can women's sport ever flourish if people born male and have gone through male puberty are allowed to compete in female categories? If you allow it at the grassroots level, you'll never have any biological women moving up to elite level. If you allow it at elite level, sporting bodies will often just pick the biological males for the best chance of a podium place.
  • How can news outlets report on transwomen rapists using she and her pronouns when the rapists have been merrily using their penises to traumatise (and in some cases impregnate) women and children? How can they be sent to a woman's prison?

But one of the big things is that, when I ask myself the question, "What makes me a woman?", I can't answer without resorting to biology, or the social interactions I receive because of that biology. I don't fit into a lot of the supposed female stereotypes, most of my interests are considered stereotypically 'male' - which I've always regarded as bollocks, because hobbies don't have a gender, unless it's penis fencing. Men should be able to knit and watch Call the Midwife without judgement, women should be able to play Warhammer and listen to Cannibal Corpse without people getting sniffy. Boys should be able to play with Barbies and girls with Transformers without being labelled trans.

I don't 'feel' like a woman - I simply am one because of the body I was born into, and a lot of trans ideology seems to be really reductive ("I always hated wearing dresses and having long hair", "I always liked dolls and pink", etc).

I do often have moments of thinking, "Am I a bigot? Am I the equivalent of the racists and homophobes of the past?", or, "I love JK, but maybe she's going a bit far", but then I see TRAs on Twitter insisting that you can be a woman with a penis, and that transwomen are biologically female, and that lesbians are genital fetishists if they won't date transwomen, and I'm just like, "Nah. I'm fine". Generally I'm OK with the transwomen who've had full surgery, because that suggests that they're genuinely gender dysmorphic, but they're always going to be biologically male, and still shouldn't be allowed in women's sports, etc. I'd still question whether the path the medical system took them down was the best, but if they're happier, good for them.

But the weirdos happily possessing 'lady dicks' and demanding unquestioning acceptance are just dudes cosplaying as women.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 20:03

ZsaZsaTheCat · 08/04/2024 19:52

I made the point that unisex toilets are a good solution and you stated that unisex toilets led to a rise in sexual assault. But this was disingenuous because your ‘ evidence’ refers to changing rooms not toilets. So you need to be very careful with these sweeping statements that you can’t back up.

Here.

https://4w.pub/single-sex-toilets-human-right/

https://oslodesk.com/opinion-women-still-need-their-own-toilets-in-public-places/

Links to various evidence, including research from WaterAid and Unicef, in those posts.

Access to Single-Sex Toilets is a Women's Human Right

In 2018, 90% of cases of sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment happened in unisex facilities.

https://4w.pub/single-sex-toilets-human-right

Runningupthecurtains · 08/04/2024 20:04

GoonieGang · 08/04/2024 19:01

No, you are absolutely correct they can not get pregnant .
I’m going to bow out now and lick my wounds 😂. I hope I haven’t offended too many of you with my views

This is why I believe trans people, especially children, are being sold a lie.

No human has ever changed sex i.e. gone from producing one type of gametes to producing the other type.

Sex classes exists to allow reproduction. The gender-y sparkly, sport liking, DIY doing, lip stick wearing, pink/blue nonsense bits are not sex, they change over time and location.

RebelliousCow · 08/04/2024 20:05

GoonieGang · 08/04/2024 19:38

I’m sure you do spend your entire life in single sex spaces do you? There is more to life than public toilets and changing rooms

Of course, but places in which female bodies and/or biology are prominent tend to be those in which single sex provision is appropriate.

andforthatminuteablackbirdsang · 08/04/2024 20:05

@StolenCookie "My only comfort is that each generation is always more inclusive and progressive than the last."

Good luck with that one 😂

RedToothBrush · 08/04/2024 20:06

RebelliousCow · 08/04/2024 20:00

Not really! It is men that are absolutely and overwhelmingly voyeurs and fetishists.

If women have fetishes - they tend to keep them private.

Edited

Indeed. Perhaps Goonie would like to pull up the counter evidence to prove their point rather than just what Goonie feels and thinks.

SilverBranchGoldenPears · 08/04/2024 20:07
  1. F. Pretty sure trans people have the same rights as anyone else don’t they?? I’m supportive of human rights certainly.
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 20:08

I get the feeling that Goonie is conflicted between her reality based views and her love and loyalty for her stepchild. She's in a difficult position.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 20:08

From the report 'female friendly public toilets':

'In Bihar, India, for example, ‘sanitation-related’ rapes made up nearly half
of the more than 870 cases of rape in the state in 2012'

Some of the references:

4 Corburn J and Hildebrand C (2015). Slum sanitation and the social determinants of women’s health in Nairobi, Kenya. Journal of Environmental and Public Health. Vol. 2015. Article ID
209505. Available at doi.org/10.1155/2015/209505 (accessed 4 Sep 2018).

15 Hulland KRS, Chase RP, Caruso BA et al (2015). Sanitation, stress, and life stage: a systematic data collection study among women in Odisha, India. PLoS ONE 10(11): e0141883. Available at doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0141883 (accessed 4 Sep 2018)

Kumar M (2013). Rapists on prowl in loo-less rural Bihar. 17 January 2013. As cited in House S, Ferron S, Sommer S and Cavill S (2014).4 18 Massey K (2011). Insecurity and shame, exploration of the impact of the lack of sanitation
on women in the slums of Kampala, Uganda. Briefing note. London: SHARE Consortium. Available at assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/57a08ae9e5274a27b2000839/VAW_
Uganda.pdf (accessed 4 Sep 2018).

19 Corburn J and Hildebrand C (2015). Slum sanitation and the social determinants of women’s health in Nairobi, Kenya. Journal of Environmental and Public Health. Available at dx.doi.
org/10.1155/2015/209505 (accessed 4 Sep 2018)

RebelliousCow · 08/04/2024 20:10

GoonieGang · 08/04/2024 20:02

No. What it’s saying is I personally wouldn’t have a problem with it.
But if you have seen my other comments I don’t agree that they should automatically have a right to access women only spaces. I acknowledge that whether it be for personal or religious reasons, some women just don’t want it.
I do not believe that because a person is transitioning they are entitled to go and do as they please.
I do not believe that misgendering is a ‘hate’ issue. It happens all the time, deal with it.
I do believe that if someone is insistent on changing gender, they can do so without a witch hunt and to be accused of automatically being an abusive pervert.
The prominent trans activists on SM are not representative of the trans person I know. And yes, in my view, they do more harm than good.

The 'thing' is- when someone " changes gender" all that really means is that they're dressing and presenting in ways thought to be typical of the opposite sex, for whatever reason. "Being trans" is just a framing device for the above practice.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/04/2024 20:12

This is why I believe trans people, especially children, are being sold a lie.

No human has ever changed sex i.e. gone from producing one type of gametes to producing the other type.

Sex classes exists to allow reproduction. The gender-y sparkly, sport liking, DIY doing, lip stick wearing, pink/blue nonsense bits are not sex, they change over time and location.

This.

RedToothBrush · 08/04/2024 20:13

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 20:08

I get the feeling that Goonie is conflicted between her reality based views and her love and loyalty for her stepchild. She's in a difficult position.

And?

Goonie is saying that she isn't an activist whilst simultaneously pushing this idea that it's not had much of an effect and hasn't made much of a difference.

With a total absence of comment on health. Or how others may feel unable to say anything. Or how it DOES have effect on plenty of others - see the trans widows threads for a starting point. See all the religious communities.

As long as it doesn't bother HER is all that matters. Everyone else should just agree and suck it up.

It's so tremendously arrogant and tone deaf.

And that's just it. This repeated tone deafness to the rest of the world.

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