Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

@Prelapsarianhag "71 and hugely trans positive. No time for all this Gender Critical hate - its a miserable ideology that props up the Patriarchy."

Can you say a bit more about this?

Isn't it just?

The only bigots are the ones who fail to understand the history of human rights, the purposes of human rights, the underlying principles of human rights, how human rights need to be balanced and then shout about banning this that and the other in the name of transactivism.

Like duh.

Mumsnet has, over time, become a more and more transphobic space due to a refusal to moderate the anti trans views expressed here (don’t bother coming at me, I won’t engage) which has driven out other users who don’t share those views. I started a poll once and the overwhelming number of people (and there were a LOT of responses, because absolutely nothing gets people more fired up here than trans issues) said they did not believe that trans women are women. It’s almost all the same here. Either downright hateful views expressed in truly despicable language, or the more common refrain of “I don’t care if they wear a dress, as long as they and I don’t have to consider them women”. You’ll also get a LOT of shouting about chromosomes. It’s painful. My only comfort is that each generation is always more inclusive and progressive than the last, so ‘gender critical’ views will become increasingly fringe. Can’t wait for its final death rattle, honestly.

#Trans women are women.

And here's a section from the Yougov report specifically on age:

'While the youngest Britons are more supportive than their elders, there are some trans rights issues on which they too show scepticism. There is net opposition among 18-24 year olds for providing transgender treatments to children, and allowing trans women to take part in women’s sporting events. And although there is slim net support for making the legal process of transition easier (+6), they are marginally opposed to removing the main requirements that would actually entail: requiring trans people to live as their preferred gender for two years (-4) and requiring a doctor to sign off (-6).
On access to gendered sports and spaces, attitudes have become consistently less permissive among those under the age of 65. However, for 18-24 year olds this shift has mostly been a result of people being more likely to shift from the permissive view into “don’t know”, than to actively become anti- certain practices. This is not the case among 25-49 and 50-64 year olds. Among those aged 65 and above, attitudes actually became more permissive between 2018 and 2020 (albeit, from a very sceptical starting point), although they have since become more negative again.
Separately, 18-24 year olds have also become specifically more likely to say trans people should not need a doctor’s approval to change their legal gender, rising from 23% to 33%. This shift has played out as a movement from saying one was necessary in 2018 to being unsure in 2020, and then from unsure to saying it is not necessary in 2022.'

It's a long report, with lots and lots of stats in it. These tend to be far more complex than 'support trans rights'. There are people who support trans people's rights to change sex socially, but not legally, or legally but dependent on genital surgery, or supportive of males identifying into rape crisis centres, but not changing rooms, or supportive of making self ID easier. And these attitudes aren't necessarily consistent across age groups or between sex classes. And they are shifting all the time.

You are anticipating with pleasure the death of people whose views you dislike but are unable to discuss.

I am entirely unsurprised.

I don't understand how anyone can argue that all sport should be mixed. We had a marathon where I live this weekend. The first female came in nearly 40 minutes behind the first male. In fact the fastest 3 females came in 27th, 44th and 74th place.

If all sport was mixed sex there would be absolutely no point in women taking part competitively 😡

You cannot 'refuse service' in healthcare in the NHS in UK: it's not a pub. Whoever it was upthread who posted this said 'gap' surgery, which I take to mean GP. They are self-employed with NHS contracts.

A patient can refuse to accept care from any individual, no need to give any reason. I realise it's unpleasant to be told you're the 'wrong' colour/ethnic group, but tough luck. It happened to me and I'm white. Nothing to be done apart from allocate someone else.

If the patient breaches the law, you can involve the police. But they still get the medical care they need.

'My only comfort is that each generation is always more inclusive and progressive than the last, so ‘gender critical’ views will become increasingly fringe. Can’t wait for its final death rattle, honestly.'

This is the last remaining argument of trans activists, really. That their mums are old and going to die soon.

I seem to recall some research showing that there was one specific generation that were most supportive of 'gender ideology', and that we are now seeing increasing resistance to it among younger people. A sort of TWAW bulge, that is already passing.

But unfortunately I can't remember where it was ... I'll keep looking.

I’m older and have a step son who is transitioning. Transgender people, like everyone should not be discriminated against or treated worse than anyone else.
They should also be mindful of other people. Just because a person is transitioning doesn’t give them an automatic right use single sex spaces when their genitalia is still of the opposite gender.

My (very, very limited) exposure to the younger generation (my kids and their friends of varying ages) is that they quietly think that the whole trans issue is a load of balloney, but feel that they have to stay silent on the subject or face being labelled a transphobe. There is a lot of pressure on them to #bekind.

The older generations are less inclined to stay quiet on the subject.

Transwomen are only women if you go with the 'anything or anyone is whatever they/I say they are' method of defining reality. There is little point in having categories or indeed species at all if we are going to do that. It is not 'phobic' to use the perfectly factual definitions of 'man' and 'woman' which the human race has always used (and which the vast majority of humans continue to use).

It’s not the older gen, it’s almost everyone.

The only people who still say TWAW are Millenials, everyone else thinks they are being daft.

Ipsos poll from 2023, but it's very broad:

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/ipsos-pride-2023-global-survey-two-in-three-britons-think-transgender-people-face-discrimination

Has everyone seen these Yougov trackers?

This one is about comfort in gender neutral toilets.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/how-comfortable-brits-feel-using-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

This one is about wanting separated toilets by 'men and women'.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces

I think any poster who still believes that those under 50 are 'fully supportive' of these 'gender neutral' toilets needs to follow these trackers in the future. The current trend is that NO ONE is trending towards wanting them. The upkick in the under 24 year old category is quite remarkable.

I think there is are some people who are not as up to date as they believe.

Maybe it is when they are watching the protestors against all the women's meetings and rallies, they believe that those protestors are the 'norm'. Whereas, I have not seen evidence that they are the norm. I have seen evidence that they are the extremists though.

I'm a mid-30's (millenial) and fully gender critical.

Yep, same. Baloney and massively attention seeking.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the death rattle @StolenCookie !

https://www.dazeddigital.com/life-culture/article/58018/1/does-gen-z-have-a-transphobia-terf-problem-trans-rights-attitudes-millenial

ermagad

To be frank, even after surgery males should not be using female only facilities. A lot of autogynephilic men ( cross dressers for whom presenting as a woman becomes an all consuming erotic obsession) go as far as having their male organs removed, but that doesn't change the motive or the drive behind it.Debbie Hayton , for example, has had the full surgery - still knows he's a man.

I find that many younger men are now being driven to transition by erotic compulsions that stem from their use of pornography, and/or from gaming culture - where they identify with the female avatars. They are often on the autistic spectrum, or otherwise socially isolated. I'm thinking of one young transitioner who I've been aware of for years - when he posts his 'progress' photos. -he's always in the same, wide eyed Lara Croft style pose for the camera. His idea/presentation of femininity is young and sexualised

Thanks for a good thought provoking thread.

I don't identify as GC, but do believe in single sex spaces.

I think people on both sides of the argument go too far, often.

From the US, so not Terf Island influenced and published in 2019, so before Lia Thomas et al.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/24/lgbtq-acceptance-millennials-decline-glaad-survey/1503758001/

Zoomer Women and Alpha Girls are not going to be pushed out of their own sports categories because a bunch of old fogey millennials keep telling them to ‘Be Kind’.

You think the poster you quoted was being misogynistic, and then go on to tell us that because we don't have to cut our hair and our in 'frumpy' dresses, and can access amazing age defying skin treatments we can still be attractive to men into our 70s. Can you even hear yourself? Clown.

@StolenCookie Can I ask you- do you think it's OK for a lesbian with a vagina to say no to having sex with another woman solely because she has a penis?

#Trans women are women when they get rid of the cock.
Same as trans men are men when they can not longer have babies and get a cock.
It’s hard transitioning and you need a strong support network around you. What you don’t need is trans activists forcing their views on people who are not yet ready to embrace it. People need education not activism

Readers note:

Anti-trans = Anti-woman

Because the reality is, those who refer to feminists as 'anti-trans' when feminists are campaigning to protect female people seek to remove those protections for female people. Hence if they want to use the hyperbolic and overly emotional and false term 'anti-trans' then they must except the logical opposite label.

Because every time someone posts using that ludicrous term for women who believe in the prioritisation of sex over gender when sex matters, they simply show they have no argument and all they have is emotional manipulation.

"My only comfort is that each generation is always more inclusive and progressive than the last, so ‘gender critical’ views will become increasingly fringe. Can’t wait for its final death rattle, honestly."

As Arabella's links are showing, what this poster I am quoting seems to be missing in their misrepresentation here, is that people who understand that sex cannot change and that there are times when society needs to prioritise sex over gender are still the majority of the UK population.

It is not this 'fringe' at all. What is a 'fringe' concept is theory that male people can become female people and vice versa based purely on a philosophical belief.

Not one person in the UK is required to prioritise some one's philosophical belief over material reality. Despite how earnestly this poster wishes it was different.

This poster will be destined for disappointment if they believe that the tendency to understand that there are times when sex needs to prioritised above gender will be subverted by the full prioritisation of gender over sex.

But then, if you are so ideologically driven that you believe that discussing the rights and needs of female people is hateful, then I think it says all people need to know.

Naw.

Nowadays a man without a cock is ‘Eunuch Gender’.