KjK "insane rant" thread 2

[AdamRyan]

First thread filled up just as it was getting interesting

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5036512-kjks-insane-rant

So let's keep it going. My characterisation if the two basic positions are:

1)KJK is a stone cold legend, haters gonna hate but many women will give her cash to bathe in champagne

2. KJK is taking right wing positions for clicks and cash, most recently criticising a doctors conference to stay relevant.

Happy to discuss further. There are some particular posts I want to respond to which I will c&p below

CPAC Australia is the same movement, just the "local branch". You can tell by the branding and messaging.
It does interest me why the American Christian Right are currently putting effort into expanding into Australian/UK politics. I can only assume its the modern day version of being missionaries and they think they are "saving souls" or something.

I'd think that Stonewall had returned to sanity.

I didn't read all the posts on the last thread. I think I've kept up with this one, but I might have missed some on here as well.

they want to "bring back the best of Howard, Thatcher and Reagan"

These were leaders of mainstream conservative parties, not the 'far right'.

I've been looking at some of the threads from last year which mentioned CPAC, including this one where @Helleofabore mentioned that they have had speakers of various political backgrounds at their conferences.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4772332-moira-deeming-avoids-expulsion-from-aus-victoria-liberal-party-powerful-thread?reply=124969565

There has been alot of discussion about CPAC as 'far right'. I find this to be rather bizarre.

From the people that I have seen associated with it, it has people from different political parties. Moira mentions it here in her response":

"CPAC a well-known and reputable organisation which is chaired by Warren Mundine AO, former Australian Labor Party national president"

There is also at least one other past ALP ex-leader who has spoken at one of their conferences.

These were leaders of mainstream conservative parties, not the 'far right'.
They were leaders 40 years ago.
An indicator that a movement has Fascist tendencies is its MO of harking back to a "golden time" and idolising "strong leaders". Nationalism and a strong focus on national culture and identity is also a feature.

Fascist = far right.

Unfortunately it's only really possible to confirm a movement was Fascist after the fact. But CPAC has enough indicators to make me very suspicious of them.

(It's the same "they do and say far right things" rather than "they are far right)

Just trying to find some links when I came across this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/what-exactly-do-we-mean-b_b_17393486/

@pickledandpuzzled the last paragraph is pretty much my world view:

As a defender of liberal values I am often challenged why my view of live and let live does not extend to the far right. I am asked why I can support those who differ to me in matters of faith, race and culture but not those who oppose my political views. The answer lies in the essence of what it is to be far right. It is to oppress, devalue and discriminate against others. This is the ethos I oppose. The paradox being that the one thing I will not tolerate is intolerance.

It's strange how keen some posters here are to downplay how extreme CPAC actually are

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/28/far-right-trump-cpac-orban-milei-truss/

I'm not trying to downplay it, I'm thinking about what I've seen from various sources and I haven't yet come to a conclusion.

I'm not someone who just accepts what a random poster on here or elsewhere says - because there's always another random poster saying the opposite.

Getting to the truth takes time and effort.

Perhaps some of you could help by defining what you mean by 'far right' and at what point a conservative politician crosses that line.

I'm really not fussed about the who at this point or at frankly at any point, but I'd really like to know what views are being considered "ultra-right wing", or "far right"?

I asked that before but I don't recall seeing an answer anywhere (please let me know if I missed it) - I feel as though it would be helpful info to know, so that posters are clear on what exactly everyone is talking about when they say these things because as I said earlier in the thread, as of right now it appears as though anything even slightly conservative is "far right" and conservatism as a concept doesn't seem to exist - Only the far right :S

And also just for clarity the whole way around the spectrum, I'd also love to know what (if anything) posters deem to be considered "far left" - Or is there no such thing?

You go first

The link I put from Huffington post is helpful

Same - read the huffpost link

I don't know why you want me to 'go first'. I'm not the one using this term. I'd always assumed it meant (in the UK) groups like the BNP.

I wouldn't use it for people like Thatcher.

Now tell me what you mean by it, because you seem to be using it differently. At what point, for you, does a Tory politician become 'far right'? Please name some Tories who you think have crossed this line. I assume you think Liz Truss is one. Who else?

oldcrone yeah i thought it was BNP/NF

i just had a look at Wikipedia (i know, i know!!! 😀) and that said the same so I don’t know when it changed…if indeed it did

I usually take HuffPost with a massive amount of scepticism, they publish very captured articles ime, especially in relation to Trans politics.

I'm a bit flummoxed to see that Libertarianism is FURTHER right than conservatism according to that link to be honest, I thought Liberal/Libertarian ideals were very much dead in the middle of left and right wing?
I'm now VERY confused honestly :S
"Further right than Conservatism is Libertarianism."

I was fairly sure I had a good understanding of where things were positioned politically, but according to HuffPost, I guess not? :S
(I'm only just at the seventh (maybe sixth?) paragraph but I'll keep reading and add more thoughts as I go)

I looked it up

Facists-
Authoritarian, Totalitarian, disappearing people who disagree, killing people who don’t contribute economically
Mussolini, lots of people disappeared and died. Nazis, lots of people disappeared and died, Pinochet
BNP, Skinheads racially intolerant, not majorly successful

Now, Regan and Thatcher don’t land anywhere there, and even Trump who I consider a nasty piece of work, doesn’t get there.

I’m struggling to see your interpretation. It looks a lot more like annoyance at the popularity of a position that you don’t agree with.
It’s really muddled to be honest.

Does it really boil down to-
KJK has had support from CPAS, is a single issue campaigner who doesn’t shun people who don’t agree on other things, and is perilously close to ushering in a resurgence of the Nazis?

I realise it really can’t. I realise you are more sensible than that. But I am seeing moral panic from you.

This whole paragraph I don't understand tbqh, Since when is freedom of speech etc further right than conservatism????
Has the definition of being a liberal changed???

"Further right than Conservatism is Libertarianism. This places more emphasis on the individual's rights than any obligation the individual has to community values. Libertarianism is concerned with freedom and has become intrinsically linked to the concept of free speech. In Libertarian economics both private ownership and private enterprise are encouraged."

I'm also a bit bamboozled by this line;
"Patriotism can be found in both left and right wing politics. Nationalism is a right wing ideology."
I agree with the latter part re; nationalism ofc.
But I've not seen patriotism in left wing circles in a VERY long time which is something which has persistently saddened me. If anything it's more hatred for ones own country.
The most recent example I can think of this is where Labour decided to leave off the Union Jack on their campaign leaflets for fear of alienating ethnic minorities.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks#:~:text=Keir%20Starmer%20faces%20discontent%20as%20Labour%20MPs%20reject%20union%20jack%20election%20flyers,-Exclusive%3A%20Members%20say&text=Keir%20Starmer%20is%20facing%20discontent,ethnic%20minority%20voters%20and%20others.

The Huffpost article then goes on to say this;
"In keeping with the idea of a traditional and, to a certain extent, homogenous society the far right reject the liberal ideals of actualising the self and condemn individuals who do not conform to their preconceived ideas of how people should behave."
Which suggest to me that liberalism is left wing, but which contradicts what the article said earlier where Libertarianism is more right wing that run of the mill Conservatism. :S

They then round the article off with this;
"As a defender of liberal values I am often challenged why my view of live and let live does not extend to the far right."
Which again seems like an utterly massive contradiction.

Apologies I'm really not trying to nit pick or be snide in nay way, but I've always considered myself a left leaning liberal (so left of centre). I've always only ever voted Labour or for a joke party to "protest" in my own little way.
So to see the definition of liberal be placed as MORE right wing that Conservatism is a bit baffling.
Libertarianism has always both seemed to me to be, and been explained to me when younger as dead in the centre - Bottom line, I've come away from that article VERY bloody confused! 😅😅

are you confusing it with liberalism?

Libertarianism is the American thing where no one is allowed to stop me beating my wife if I think she needs it, I’ll marry my daughter to whoever I please, and shoot anyone who tries to stop me, this is my god given right as a white man who owns his own paddock.

I’ve read that. Very American

What leaps out at me is that totalitarianism and authoritarianism are about stamping out diversity, disliking a breadth of opinion. The right and left veer back towards each other to close the circle, in that respect. You are not keen on anyone else maintaining a different position to you and need us to justify why it’s acceptable to us as those positions are unacceptable to you. You’ll have noticed most of us have said we don’t agree with KJK on everything, but we agree her freedom to say it and run her campaign as she sees fit.

For you to compare thoroughly conservatism to Fascism is like me comparing the Labour Party with Stalin.

There's right libertarianism and also left libertarianism. A bit like left/right authoritarianism. Both a bit nuts 😜 isn't it like wheel where you go so far left you end up in the right.

I know it's Wikipedia (the sacrilege! 😂), but I'm right in the middle of making a Bolognese for later so I can't find a better source as of right this second; I was under the impression they were synonymous tbh!

Libertarianism (low taxes, small government, take care of the vulnerable in your own family/community and keep your own streets clean and well maintained) would be lovely if people weren’t such arseholes!
Oh and if there weren’t billions of people on the planet and corporations ready to exploit from all angles at all times.

I mean, you're not wrong,, one can dream though! xD

See for me, liberal is wishy washy left of centre, live and let live. Bit like me.

Libertarian gives me those ‘freeman of the land’ vibes.

Politics is interesting. Well, theoretically. In practice I find it truly tedious.

Small state, lots of independence, but be law abiding.
Big state, everyone cooperate and do what they are told.

I’m not convinced anyone actually understands what other people believe, politically speaking.

And it all circles back together.

I think I pretty much agree with you entirely tbh!

Perhaps some of you could help by defining what you mean by 'far right' and at what point a conservative politician crosses that line.

Hungary’s PM Viktor Orbán is considered 'far-right' by many.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/04/hungary-viktor-orban-donald-trump-cpac

Can you give some UK examples?