KjK "insane rant" thread 2

[AdamRyan]

First thread filled up just as it was getting interesting

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5036512-kjks-insane-rant

So let's keep it going. My characterisation if the two basic positions are:

1)KJK is a stone cold legend, haters gonna hate but many women will give her cash to bathe in champagne

2. KJK is taking right wing positions for clicks and cash, most recently criticising a doctors conference to stay relevant.

Happy to discuss further. There are some particular posts I want to respond to which I will c&p below

pickled is right I think. Libertarianism is your "freedom of speech", laissez faire, people can live as they want with minimal state intervention. Very much a conservative mindset.

I think liberalism is similar in terms of freedom of speech, live how you want but with more state intervention.

I think really this is where US politics doesn't work in a UK context. To me "liberalism" is centre and where most people are. "Libertarianism" is more right wing and argues for less state intervention. "Socialism" is more left wing and argues for more state intervention.

In the US "Liberal" is synonymous with left wing and that's seeping into our discourse in the UK and confusing everyone. But that's because the US is more right wing than the UK (as in that twitter thread I linked above)

Left libertarianism exists

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

I think Conservative politicians can criss the line into appealing to the far right without being far right themselves. Enoch Powell (I mentioned upthread) is a good example. Suella Braverman would be another.

Powell for his "rivers of blood" speech.

And Braverman for her Pakistani grooming gangs article that the DM had to print an apology for.

Now what do you think? Do you think Enoch Powell/Suella Braverman were reflecting mainstream conservative opinion?

Can you see how what they said would chime with your more uncontroversial far right politics e.g. the BNP?

And if so, would you say they were far right politicians, or Conservative politicians saying far right things?

Just to be clear, I compared some aspects of what CPAC specifically are doing to fascism. Not all Conservatives.

And yes, that's exactly like people in 2019 pointing out the communist tendencies in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party. Which in my opinion was part of the reason he catastrophically lost the election.

The British public don't want an extreme on either side. It appears Sunak has forgotten that which is why he is screwed for the next election.

And your point is?
What do you think far right looks like?

And thank you all because this was actually the conversation we were starting to get to at the end of the last thread. Shame its taken more than half this one for people to be able to approach it in a more measured way!

My goal is to get to a position where people can criticise each others views without it being "bad faith" and can see why some people might object to KJK without resorting to "its all a smear"

my point is that you are wrong to declare libertarianism as right wing!

I think the Far Right looks like a tiny, laughable rump in the UK (last time we looked the National Front had just 27 members left).

https://www.workersliberty.org/nfrise

The new Reform party seem to be Conservative leaning more to the right. We don't have UKIP anymore who were even more to the right and then the NF I would class as far right.

Well firstly I'm just posting my opinion so no need to be hostile.

Secondly I think the far right has been trying to legitimise itself for years. They had some limited success with Nick Griffin in 2006 ish. But (to me) Farage and UKIP was where a lot of far right ideas really started to move into the mainstream (by that I mean the anti immigration, protect British culture views of the far right). This is now being picked up by reform.

The Tories are in the position Labour usually are, of losing their vote share to Reform. So they are expressing far right sympathetic views to keep those voters. Meanwhile turning off the central, Liberal voters that make up most of the UK demographic.

And there appears to be an element of the American Conservative Right supporting this move of our Conservative party to the right.

What does this have to do with KJK? I don't fully know but my view is CPAC aren't funding her for no reason other than the goodness of their hearts.

I found this quite interesting, and it made me wonder if in fact KJK is doing this deliberately to up her views and spread her message.

Understandable, but to me distasteful.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/technology/alt-right-youtube-algorithm.html

I can't read that article Adam.

I’m not being hostile I’m answering the questions you asked me.

Ok. Can’t read the NYT article.

I think it’s clear why CPAS would fund KJK. They have money to promote their world view, what they’d see as a return to old fashioned Christian values. One element of that is that cross dressing men are not women- I mean, what use is a transwoman in their world view?
((for clarity that’s a reflection of typical CPAS thinking not mine!))

I think KJK can stand for that element of their beliefs, and they hold their nose as to her other beliefs, just as she does theirs. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all that.

History is full of unlikely allies working together periodically, then knocking seven bells out of each other when the initial threat to both has passed.

I don’t see KJK as playing the algorithms. I don’t think she needs to. Her righteous indignation about male invasion of women’s spaces and safeguarding children needs no fanning for effect. She’s naturally un agreeable, as JP observed in that journalist.

She’s not Laurence Fox, talking Bollox for an audience. She’s not Katie Hopkins so keen to scorn other women’s choices she overlooked her own child’s name.

I understand you don’t like her style and suspect her of being conservative, but I still disagree.

Conservatism is not libertarianism, in fact conservatism =/= libertarianism =/= fascism. Suggesting this takes us back to sixth form politics.

Whilst the Conservative Party have adopted neo-liberal economic policies, socially they remain broadly just right of centre.

Racism exists across the whole left-right spectrum. To suggest that racism is the preserve of the right is incredibly naive. To suggest that conservatives are fascist is equally naive.

This isn't The Young Ones, not everyone who isn't a socialist is a fascist.

Try this
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210415161818/www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/technology/alt-right-youtube-algorithm.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20210415161818/www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/technology/alt-right-youtube-algorithm.html

She’s not Laurence Fox, talking Bollox for an audience. She’s not Katie Hopkins so keen to scorn other women’s choices she overlooked her own child’s name.

Some of the stuff she says that isn't linked to womens rights does appear to be a bit like LF/KH to me.

And I also wouldn't necessarily describe them as "far right" but they say far right things.

I don't know why posters persist in making this about "conservatism" when we are clearly talking about far right.

It is a spectrum. Far right is one end. Where "Conservatism" stops and "far right" starts is the point.

To suggest that racism is the preserve of the right is incredibly naive. To suggest that conservatives are fascist is equally naive.

This isn't The Young Ones, not everyone who isn't a socialist is a fascist.

No one is suggesting those things. We are debating what far right is, what it looks like and what is/isn't far right. It might be easier for you to discount the debate in black/white terms but that's not what we are doing here.

What does far right mean to you?

What does far right mean to you KJK 🐩?

The National Front, as described in the article I posted above.

Here is it again, save you scrolling up.

https://www.workersliberty.org/nfrise

And here’s one of your preferred sources, pointing out what a laughing stock the NF are today:

https://hopenothate.org.uk/2022/03/02/far-right-roundup-national-front-leader-quits-britain/

Can you see how what they said would chime with your more uncontroversial far right politics e.g. the BNP?

The BNP are not 'uncontroversial' and my politics are not 'far right' and I don't support the BNP.

I have no idea why you think I am a far right supporter of the BNP. Your statement is really offensive.

Have you any idea about how your posts come across to others? The person you accused of being 'hostile' was replying to a post of yours which said:
And your point is?
What do you think far right looks like?

Your post was the hostile one. Her post was very measured and reasonable with no hostility at all.

But she's right. 'Libertarianism' doesn't have to be right wing.

Far right to me is ultra nationalist movements that strive for racial/ethnic purity, often highly authoritarian and highly sexist, often anti progress.

Which is not the same as conservatism or even the Christian conservativism which is more a thing in the US than here.

The SNP's origins place it closer to far right than the Conservative Party.

Gonna post this again. It is a useful reminder of how shonky some people's perceptions of left and right have become.

Going back to CPAC, I'd hope we can all agree with them that human trafficking should be combatted and that fathers should be made to pay for their children once it's proven the child is theirs? Or should we disagree because our politics don't fully align?