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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hollyoaks - well this is creepy!

444 replies

Imnobody4 · 07/03/2024 12:25

This is an important conversation to have #Hollyoaks

https://twitter.com/Flashmaggie/status/1765511265076613611?t=DMjXSrOUX7zq5tzRgsRGEA&s=19

OP posts:
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15
GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 10/03/2024 10:27

Datun · 10/03/2024 10:25

Willoughby, on rubbing oil into their naked chest on Big Brother, said they felt absolutely nothing in that area. Zero

Have you quoted the wrong person? What has that got to do with anything with they said? 😕

RufustheFactualReindeer · 10/03/2024 10:27

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:16

I don't think that many people who support trans rights think that people can literally change sex. I don't, and neither do any of the trans people I know. I don't know where this conviction comes from.

Its not a conviction, at no point have i said that people who support trans rights believe this

i think that 99% of people believe that you can’t change sex

but definitions of gc vary, 🤷🏻

Datun · 10/03/2024 10:29

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 10/03/2024 10:27

Have you quoted the wrong person? What has that got to do with anything with they said? 😕

Edited

Arabella quoted Willoughby saying if they take oestrogen, they have boobs and it means they've changed sex.

I'm just pointing out, that Willoughby was at pains to demonstrate that the 'boobs' they had acquired meant nothing to them.

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:29

OldCrone · 10/03/2024 10:23

So if they agree with us that people can't change sex and that trans people should have the same rights as everyone else, what do they disagree with?

That trans people should be treated differently from others with the same gender identity.

I'm not arguing any more this morning. I've heard the same arguments repeated over and over and it's just so tedious that I haven't even got the energy to type any more.

Datun · 10/03/2024 10:30

Datun · 10/03/2024 10:29

Arabella quoted Willoughby saying if they take oestrogen, they have boobs and it means they've changed sex.

I'm just pointing out, that Willoughby was at pains to demonstrate that the 'boobs' they had acquired meant nothing to them.

Sorry, it wasn't Arabella it was, Waitwhat23

Boiledbeetle · 10/03/2024 10:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OldCrone · 10/03/2024 10:33

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:22

No one thinks people can literally change sex, they just think that gender identity is more important.

As to the second point, I'm afraid I just can't be bothered. It's Sunday morning and I have better things to do than argue with such a ridiculous statement.

Gender identity. That indefinable thing that is beyond definition and only exists as a thought process in people's heads which is different for everyone who experiences it, which is why it can't be defined.

It's nothing to do with sex, and it definitely isn't to do with gender stereotypes, and yet it somehow aligns, or doesn't align, with people's sex.

Despite being indefinable and different for everyone who experiences it, somehow we know that it's really the same thing being experienced by all the people who experience it.

Despite being nothing to do with sex, it's people's sex which is the focus of gender identity, and it's genitals and secondary sex characteristics which must be cosmetically altered to align gender identity with sex.

Gender identity. It's so, so important.

ArabellaScott · 10/03/2024 10:34

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:09

I find your total confidence that you know my family and friends better than I do bizarre. We debate, and sometimes argue, over lots of issues, but generally all my family and friends are very liberal, tolerant and kind. I know those words are not popular on this particular forum.

You must be aware that gender critical feminism is very much a minority view. There are many people who are intolerant of, or prejudiced against trans people, but they tend to be generally socially conservative. Most people on the left and most liberals are pro trans rights. Those who straddle the divide are rare, so it's not surprising that I don't know any. I know some people who are trans phobic, but they certainly aren't feminists, nor are they friends, just acquaintances. They are all men too.

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1

'When it comes to this wider question of whether trans rights diminish women’s rights, Britons are split, with 33% saying it does not pose any genuine risk to women’s rights, while 36% think it does. The other 31% of Britons are unsure.'

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2022? | YouGov

There has been an erosion in support for trans rights since 2018

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1?redirect_from=%2Ftopics%2Fsociety%2Farticles-reports%2F2022%2F07%2F20%2Fwhere-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

DialSquare · 10/03/2024 10:34

I'm not arguing any more this morning. I've heard the same arguments repeated over and over and it's just so tedious that I haven't even got the energy to type any more.

Poor you. Women trying to protect their own rights is just so tedious isn't it. If only we would all just pander to the dick, it would be so much easier.

ArabellaScott · 10/03/2024 10:35

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:29

That trans people should be treated differently from others with the same gender identity.

I'm not arguing any more this morning. I've heard the same arguments repeated over and over and it's just so tedious that I haven't even got the energy to type any more.

Oh that's a shame. I thought we could reminisce about Peter Tatchell, seeing as you're such an admirer. I had only just started sharing some of his heroic quotes.

Boiledbeetle · 10/03/2024 10:38

I cannot believe we have a poster on this thread who not only thinks there is nothing wrong with a grown man touching a 12 year old girl for 28 seconds whilst grooming her but also thinks Peter T is a great courageous bloke and a hero of our times.

And we are apparently the ones on here with defective thought processes!

I feel nauseous.

Helleofabore · 10/03/2024 10:40

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:29

That trans people should be treated differently from others with the same gender identity.

I'm not arguing any more this morning. I've heard the same arguments repeated over and over and it's just so tedious that I haven't even got the energy to type any more.

You really are not even that up with what supposedly many male people with trans identities want. We are told constantly that the majority don’t use female single sex spaces out of respect.

Yet here you are dismissing their opinions to prioritise the extreme demands. It is like you have such a polarised view that you cannot consider anything other than full compliance. That really is ideological.

Boiledbeetle · 10/03/2024 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Waitwhat23 · 10/03/2024 10:40

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:25

Such an understanding of sex is rare. But anyway, why does it matter if people can or can't change sex? I don't understand why posters here think it's so important. Just let people be. Their chromosomes and hormones are their own business and don't matter.

I'll quote you directly -

'No one thinks people can literally change sex, they just think that gender identity is more important.'

But clearly some people do believe that they can change sex.

And if that then impacts on single sex spaces because those who are the opposite sex demand access either because they believe they have literally changed sex or believe that they should because of a bizarre legal fiction, then that is the business of women who need single sex spaces and services for their safety and dignity.

Datun · 10/03/2024 10:44

OldCrone · 10/03/2024 10:33

Gender identity. That indefinable thing that is beyond definition and only exists as a thought process in people's heads which is different for everyone who experiences it, which is why it can't be defined.

It's nothing to do with sex, and it definitely isn't to do with gender stereotypes, and yet it somehow aligns, or doesn't align, with people's sex.

Despite being indefinable and different for everyone who experiences it, somehow we know that it's really the same thing being experienced by all the people who experience it.

Despite being nothing to do with sex, it's people's sex which is the focus of gender identity, and it's genitals and secondary sex characteristics which must be cosmetically altered to align gender identity with sex.

Gender identity. It's so, so important.

Nailed it

Boiledbeetle · 10/03/2024 10:45

Waitwhat23 · 10/03/2024 10:40

I'll quote you directly -

'No one thinks people can literally change sex, they just think that gender identity is more important.'

But clearly some people do believe that they can change sex.

And if that then impacts on single sex spaces because those who are the opposite sex demand access either because they believe they have literally changed sex or believe that they should because of a bizarre legal fiction, then that is the business of women who need single sex spaces and services for their safety and dignity.

Handily there is a new thread that is currently collecting evidence of people claiming trans people actually change sex. It's not just one or two people that has incredibly fucked up thinking.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5024662-evidence-of-trans-claiming-to-change-sex

Evidence of trans claiming to change sex | Mumsnet

I’m sure I’ve seen articles where trans individuals are actually claiming to have changed sex, eg IW claiming to have a cervix. Is there anything out...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5024662-evidence-of-trans-claiming-to-change-sex

Helleofabore · 10/03/2024 10:46

Beefcurtains79 · 10/03/2024 10:16

Oh, I see…..that makes sense.
You spend such a lot of time on here, it must be awful for you.
Why so keen to hang out with the type of women you and your friends hate, who are such a poisonous minority?

Maybe for the sympathy factor from other ideologically driven people. “I spent time on MN and all I got was x. “

We are seeing Willoughby remaining on Twitter X for the building of profile and sympathy. Why wouldn’t it apply here. And yet, when you look back and see the arguments that this poster uses, they could be considered misogynistic, homophobic and racist and ableist. Yes, there could be considered parallels here.

SinnerBoy · 10/03/2024 10:59

I am a great admirer of Peter Tatchell. I have also met him a on a couple of occasions. He is hugely courageous and a true hero of our times.

Beaten to it, obviously, but there's nothing admirable, or courageous about a man who supports middle aged men raping 9 year old boys.

Helleofabore · 10/03/2024 11:01

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:09

I find your total confidence that you know my family and friends better than I do bizarre. We debate, and sometimes argue, over lots of issues, but generally all my family and friends are very liberal, tolerant and kind. I know those words are not popular on this particular forum.

You must be aware that gender critical feminism is very much a minority view. There are many people who are intolerant of, or prejudiced against trans people, but they tend to be generally socially conservative. Most people on the left and most liberals are pro trans rights. Those who straddle the divide are rare, so it's not surprising that I don't know any. I know some people who are trans phobic, but they certainly aren't feminists, nor are they friends, just acquaintances. They are all men too.

I see this post as a signal of this poster’s absolutism and polarisation of thought. Maybe their reading comprehension too.

I have not used words expressing my ‘total confidence’ at all. I have pointed out that a lack of self awareness, as shown on these threads, combined with a known issue with people of many opinions not saying anything out of fear.

Helleofabore · 10/03/2024 11:26

Datun · 10/03/2024 10:16

So fox's friends are all liberal, tolerant and kind, except the one who wasn't obviously. But Fox bravely confronted her and doesn't talk to her. Fox's liberal, tolerant and kind friends are jealous of fox and applaud fox for their unwavering stance.

And scene

And Fox and Friends feel ever so ‘tolerant’ when the reality is they are anything but.

But the word ‘tolerant’ means something very different to them vs the rest of the English speaking world.

Beefcurtains79 · 10/03/2024 11:43

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:19

I really don't think I'm hanging out here.

What would you call it? You keep giving joke answers, or dodging the question.

Why are you here?

Datun · 10/03/2024 11:55

Helleofabore · 10/03/2024 11:26

And Fox and Friends feel ever so ‘tolerant’ when the reality is they are anything but.

But the word ‘tolerant’ means something very different to them vs the rest of the English speaking world.

Yes, tolerant and kind, whilst going behind their friend's back to moan to fox about how jealous they are because they still have to talk to this absolute pariah.

And the tolerance and kindness of fox feeling gratified by it 🤣

Crikey!

Helleofabore · 10/03/2024 11:56

Datun · 10/03/2024 11:55

Yes, tolerant and kind, whilst going behind their friend's back to moan to fox about how jealous they are because they still have to talk to this absolute pariah.

And the tolerance and kindness of fox feeling gratified by it 🤣

Crikey!

Edited

Operation : Let them speak! Is going very well with this poster I feel.

Very well indeed.

Helleofabore · 10/03/2024 12:18

ForCoralFox · 10/03/2024 10:29

That trans people should be treated differently from others with the same gender identity.

I'm not arguing any more this morning. I've heard the same arguments repeated over and over and it's just so tedious that I haven't even got the energy to type any more.

But anyway, why does it matter if people can or can't change sex? I don't understand why posters here think it's so important. Just let people be. Their chromosomes and hormones are their own business and don't matter.

This above was posted as well on another post.

I will just post this from another thread where I and others spent considerable time trying to point out how legitimate discrimination under the EA and under safeguarding risk assessment works to fox. I see that they still wish to stay on extreme transgender rights activist mode in broadcasting their misinformed and polarised stance. One that allows for no deviation from the ridiculously dismissive and harmful claim that I bolded above.

However, Sex is absolutely real and it is proven. Gender identity has been proven to be only a philosophical belief and is changeable, sometimes in constant flux.

There is one form of ‘negative sex discrimination’ based on sex that feminists have long fought against such as female people being excluded from employment, education, activities etc based on their sexed body. This is considered illegitimate discrimination and is harmful to female people.

There is also the necessary form of discrimination that is used for calculating safeguarding risks which is also based on sexed bodies, but the only 'negative' impact it has is to exclude one sex from a space designated as single sex for safety purposes. This discrimination has been the basis of sex segregated spaces since those spaces became available to public life. This form of discrimination is a legitimate form
of discrimination as it benefits all female people through improving safety and their privacy and dignity. Incidentally, male single sex spaces are also allowed using this type of discrimination as well.

The EA allows for this type of legitimate discrimination. Because without that discrimination, female people are negatively impacted by trans people being treated as if they were the gender they declare they are.

The statement, “That trans people should be treated differently from others with the same gender identity.”, is like the usual mantras we see. It is far too simplistic and it never comes close to acknowledging that sex is sometimes more important that gender identity. Therefore there are times when sex needs to take priority making this statement unworkable.

But that is the point. Making it is unworkable is the point. Nothing but full acceptance is to be allowed. Remember too that we are told ‘Their chromosomes and hormones are their own business and don't matter.’ This is demonstrably false. IT IS OTHER PEOPLE’S BUSINESS TO KNOW THE SPACE THEY EXPECT TO BE SINGLE SEX IS NOT SINGLE SEX.

People who dismiss the need for legitimate discrimination are, in reality, misogynistically dismissing the needs of some of the truly most marginalised people in the UK. Women and girls who are vulnerable with no support and who need single sex spaces to heal from trauma and be able to live without the devastating combination of several axis of oppression.

Where is sex important?

Single sex spaces
Single sex health care
Female sports
Roles set aside for a specific sex that is considered applicable under the EA.

Here are just four instances.

Shall we ask fox to tell us why male athletes should be allowed to compete in female sports categories?