Will Labour introduce Self ID & curb free speech?

[Heylo]

I’ve never voted Tory, but as a lesbian woman who plans to have children (and obviously as a woman!) I am and will be part of the three groups most affected by Gender Ideology; women, lesbian and soon I hope a Mother. I am really worried about what happens when Labour takes power. The Tories have been rubbish no arguments there but at least they are finally moving against the steam rolling of Gender Ideology. I’m thinking Labour are not that fiscally different to the Tories and have said they will not cap bankers bonuses and they don’t intend to increase public spending in a significant way.

Really concerned about more gender identity clinics popping up under Labour and Keir Starmer possibly curbing free speech via so - called hate laws (in the feminist circle i run in we all agree this is a euphemism for silencing women about men in female prisons, rape shelters and other areas where women are vulnerable).

wonder what everyone else thinking?

And what is that "situation" according to you?

You mean having pupils throw chairs at teachers, disrupting the learning of others, regularly telling teachers to fuck off and/or abusive name calling?

Netanyahu pals up with anti semites? OK then.

The point I was trying to make is that its debatable as to whether "from the river to the sea" is antisemitic or whether that's been hijacked and toxified to appear antisemitic. It's a live debate.

It interests me that people obfuscate by saying "vile antisemitic phrase" and suchlike when protesters say "from the river to the sea". That indicates they know a lot of people would say "so what?" If they said "and the protesters were chanting "from the river to the sea"! Saying "vile antisemitism" makes it sound much worse and hate-speechy than it actually is.

It is reminiscent of TRAs politicising the phrase "adult human female" so that we couldnt use it, by claiming its a slogan indicating transphobia.

This MO is wearing thin tbh

It's quite a big topic obviously because many different communist regimes have existed in the world over time. It's not even a topic that I had ever considered to be particularly controversial. It is known that authoritarian regimes need to be able to control their populations and to do this you need to control the youth and the best way to do this is via schooling. I haven't got time to provide all the "evidence". But here is a starting point for you. Other than that Google is probably your friend if you are interested just type in "education and communism" into the search bar, there is a wealth of information.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/ref/college/coll-china-education-001.html?scp=6&sq=zhang%2520yuan&st=cse

The People’s Republic of China – Period of The Cultural Revolution (1966-1976)

The two tiered system of education continued to flourish until 1966. Mao believing that his party was loosing the revolutionary fervor and was creating a privileged elite that was a threat to the socialist regime. He accused the party of capitalist tendencies, bureaucratism, elitism, and inefficiency. By calling on the young people to actively revive the revolutionary spirit, he launched a ten-year period called “The Cultural Revolution”.
Students formed “Red Guards” and “revolutionary rebels” and went out among the populous to destroy the old culture, the old ideology, the old customs, and the old habits. Education, having a considerable impact on social and economic development, became the first targets of attack and Mao declared that education should be revolutionalized.36
At the onset of the Cultural Revolution schools were closed so that teachers and students could focus all their energy on the revolution. Decisions about education per se moved from the control of the Ministry of Education intellectuals to various subcommittees of the Communist Party Central Committee made up of local workers soldiers, peasants and politically correct teachers. The revolution in education featured a system in which:

1. the curriculum replaced theory with concepts related to work;
2. meritocracy and academic achievement was not recognized24;
3. the length of pre-post secondary schooling was cut from 12 to 10 years;
4. study in the classroom was combined with field work (five months in classroom, one month each in factory, farm and army);
5. courses in history, geography or literature were eliminated;
6. graduates were given jobs in factories and farms;
7. all entrance examinations were abolished;
8. students were selected to pursue post secondary education on basis of virtue; students from families of workers, peasants or soldiers were deemed to be the most virtuous.
9. colleges were removed from the leadership of the intellectuals.41, 35 In effect the reforms of the Cultural Revolution ” brought about the “de-schooling” of the society by destroying the whole structure of the education system. The teachers were demoralized and came under political suspicion; curricula was non-existent or watered-down, and sound teaching strategies were replaced with group-discussion, non-competitive problem-solving and open-book tests; all without quality control.38 The impact of the reforms was equally devastating on the economy and caused the regime to end the Cultural Revolution a decade after it began. Since Mao’s death the decade has been called “the ten years of turmoil”.

evidently there are a few on this thread unfamiliar with how a functioning democratic society operates.

There seem a few on the thread who basically might be happier in North Korea.

I'm left wondering really whether this is performative with some enjoyment from provoking people into responses or seeing what people will swallow, or whether it really is the case, as seems increasingly evidenced, that those holding the views on the banning of women's rights/language/homosexuality yada yada hold these extreme, repressive beliefs in a wider picture of other extreme, repressive beliefs.

Lol, I was also pondering on whether I had misunderstood.

I haven't read the full thread (yet) so I didn't know if I'd misinterpreted something the PP had said. Control and separation have been a well-known tactic of the far left.

In Cambodia:
In order to enforce loyalty to the state, the Khmer Rouge broke peoples’ ties to religion and family. All political and civil rights were abolished. Formal education ceased and from January 1977, all children from the age of eight were separated from their parents and placed in labour camps, which taught them that the state was their ‘true’ parents. For the Khmer Rouge, children were central to the revolution as they believed they could be easily moulded, conditioned and indoctrinated.

https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/cambodia/khmer-rouge-ideology/

I agree.
What is fascist is to spread communications that there is an organised threat to "our" way of life from outsiders that they can only be saved from by the right kind of leadership.

That there are shadowy "elites" who have captured and controlled our democratic institutions to let the "others" in (schools, civil service etc) and the institutes can't be trusted.

You can spot fascist thinking by the language people use. Anything appealing to emotion (particularly fear) can indicate fascism. Fascism is dependent on appeal to emotion rather than facts.

"Schools are transitioning children" - fear inducing that your child is going to be transed so don't trust schools.

"Islamists are running London" - fear inducing that "the other" have taken control, so don't trust politicians.

"The police are totally captured" '- fear inducing that "the other" have taken control, so don't trust police.

"We are subject to mob rule" - fear inducing that "the other" have taken control and a strong ruler is needed to take it back.

There is not evidence to back the strength of these statements. They are designed to appeal to fear, not fact. Hence, fascist.

It's hard to imagine how posters here managed before you arrived to explain everything, Adam.

Yes I think you have. But I cba to discuss it really. Just Google "can fascists be left wing?" And read what cleverer people that me have to say on the matter.

Have you just googled who Netanyahu is by any chance?

Not sure you've understood some posts on here Adam judging by some of your comments?

But don't worry. Posters will keep trying to explain That's the brilliant thing about Mumsnet - full of women ready to research, clarify and discuss in order to protect women's rights and ensure our children thrive and are safe. 😊

Starmer is surrounded by moon-barkers like Lisa Nandy who says child rapists can do time in a female prison and have their crime recorded as that of a woman. Labour are also persecuting GC MPs.

I hate the Tories but I will hold my nose and vote Conservative on this single issue alone ... then again I'm in Scotland so the alternative is the Scottish Nasty Party who HATE women (self-ID, conversion therapy bill, hate speech legislation etc.)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8012193/Labour-trans-rights-row-Lisa-Nandy-says-rapists-transition-sent-womens-prisons.html

And Adam ...are you perhaps suffering from 'Correctile' Dysfunction? ;-)

Oh come off it. You asked for evidence that the far left / communists use education to control children, separate them from their parents and use education to undermine systems of power. I and another poster have provided some links for you to read. Now you say that we have misunderstood you and you cba to explain what it was you meant.

I wish there was a sodding block button on Mumsnet!

@AdamRyan

I agree.
What is fascist is to spread communications that there is an organised threat to "our" way of life from outsiders that they can only be saved from by the right kind of leadership.

So.. you're planning to stop doing this then?

No you come off it

I said "You know undermining public systems (like schools and education) and eroding trust in experts (like teachers) is one of the hallmarks of fascism, right?" And you said it was also a hallmark of communism, which I asked for a link about. You've made a straw man of my view (as shown by what you have just posted) and are now getting irate.

I don't think there is evidence that communists systematically undermine public institutions. Fascists do.

I'm not doing it. Because the characteristic is "appeal to emotion not fact". I post facts, evidence to support my argument. Others post scaremongering about capture and "you can't believe them, they lie"

You don't think saying that we are in imminent danger of becoming an authoritarian fascist state is playing on people's fear?

I didn't say that did I?

I said I'm worried about attacks on our democratic system by people who are showing fascist tendencies.

The difference between me and a fascist is I think we can get out of that by voting and protecting our public services. Fascists think we get out of it by electing a "man of the people" to "take back control" by asserting their will.

None of these things are happening, it's just unhinged, paranoid thinking by people who have a very odd conception of what women's rights actually are. No one is trying to ban homosexuality and promoting inclusive language is definitely not evidence of extreme, repressive belief.

There are/have been people in positions of power in the UK who are fascists. Rees Mogg, Gove, Badenoch, Braverman, Truss, Patel.

PP82 · Today 15:06

You have no idea of my professional or academic background. I've worked with children and in education for more than 20 years, in many different types of settings, in different roles, different countries, continents, cultures.

That could mean anything, such as our neighbour, who has worked in a number of educational institutions for about 30 years.

He's a janitor and groundskeeper.