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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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21
teawamutu · 22/02/2024 22:32

AdrianPimento · 22/02/2024 22:12

its deeply depressing that you lot are like this and have so very little faith in women. Do go to the pond again and see how wonderful it is. Peeping toms (yuck, terrible term) would still be frightened off, as wd any men playing stupid games. This isn’t the group we are talking about, and none of your moral panic will persuade me otherwise. What’s so great about the pond is that it IS a female led space. Nobody - certainly not a handful of transwomen- wants to change that.

I think you missed my earlier question, so just reprising: how many of the women of faith who now cannot use the women's pond because it's a mixed sex space (in the cause of ensuring that the males who wish they were women can select their preference of all the ponds) did you ask before pronouncing that everyone's happy with the arrangement?

Buffypaws · 22/02/2024 22:36

Peeping toms (yuck, terrible term)

why? Touch a nerve?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 22:36

You seem to think some are women. And that we should all just stop worrying about it and as you say 'butt out'.

Yes, please do. Why should I be persuaded that some males can be women? What is the thing that they share with women that no other males do. Have been waiting for a coherent answer that's more than "because they want you to" for as long as I've been aware of this issue.

WibblyWobblyWeeble · 22/02/2024 22:38

AdrianPimento · 22/02/2024 22:12

its deeply depressing that you lot are like this and have so very little faith in women. Do go to the pond again and see how wonderful it is. Peeping toms (yuck, terrible term) would still be frightened off, as wd any men playing stupid games. This isn’t the group we are talking about, and none of your moral panic will persuade me otherwise. What’s so great about the pond is that it IS a female led space. Nobody - certainly not a handful of transwomen- wants to change that.

Oh we know the transwomen want to keep it female led as it's not the pond they want, it's the females swimming there.

Womenwithoutmen · 22/02/2024 22:39

it’s all deeply weird, this fetishisation of female-bodiedness, in the context of the pond.

What’s the phrase… Every accusation is a confession?

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/02/2024 22:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 22:31

its deeply depressing that you lot are like this and have so very little faith in women

"You lot" again. It's a thing.

‘You lot’ is awfully rude

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/02/2024 22:42

And god forbid we should call men who hide in bushes and stare at women and girls a mean name like ‘peeping toms’

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 22:44

this fetishisation of female-bodiedness

Why have a female pond? Isn't that a "fetishisation of female bodiedness" too? By your logic? You want everything mixed sex, don't you?

AdrianPimento · 22/02/2024 22:45

By your logic men who want to swim alone have nothing either..

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 22/02/2024 22:47

AdrianPimento · 22/02/2024 19:21

Do any of you actually swim there?

if not, please just butt out! This is a total non issue. I have swum at the pond for more than 20 years, often daily, and it is a welcoming kind gentle place. I don’t spend my time peering at genitals - nobody there does - and I have NEVER experienced any problems or trouble.

Just leave us alone, we are a happy place.

By definition, anyone currently using the pool is happy to swim with transwomen. You do not speak for all the women currently excluded by their culture, or who do not feel safe sharing the space with males.

But I guess you don't care about all the women who are have lost their space for exercise and leisure?

Saladpops · 22/02/2024 22:48

As a female, wanting a female-only place for reasons of safety and dignity is not fetishism. What a ridiculous thing to say.

And gives a worrying insight into the (male?) brain that came up with it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 22:50

By your logic men who want to swim alone have nothing either

Eh? No, that's your logic. I'm very happy for all males to have a pool without any women. MTF trans people are men though, so by my logic they can use either the mixed pool or the men's one.

teawamutu · 22/02/2024 22:52

I'm starting to wonder if Adrian checked with any women at all before coming to tell us everyone's happy.

AmaryllisChorus · 22/02/2024 22:54

IcakethereforeIam · 22/02/2024 17:10

I would presume the men's pond should be open to tm and any woman who self identifies as a man. Does anyone know if this is the case?

I once went to the men's pond years ago - thinking it was the mixed pond, Was aggressively sent on my way by the men. But now, I could call myself Steve and just jump in, presumably.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/02/2024 22:54

AdrianPimento · 22/02/2024 22:45

By your logic men who want to swim alone have nothing either..

What? Whose logic

males have the mens pond
females have the womens pond
males and females can have the mixed pond

sorted

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 22:58

But now, I could call myself Steve and just jump in, presumably.

You couldn't. The men are quite protective of their space still, and they get listened to.

Man Friday tried.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5780623/amp/Female-protesters-break-men-lido-leap-pool.html

BonnyBo · 22/02/2024 23:02

AmaryllisChorus · 22/02/2024 22:54

I once went to the men's pond years ago - thinking it was the mixed pond, Was aggressively sent on my way by the men. But now, I could call myself Steve and just jump in, presumably.

You couldn’t - Man Friday tried it and had the police called

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 22/02/2024 23:04

BonnyBo · 22/02/2024 23:02

You couldn’t - Man Friday tried it and had the police called

And quite right too. Only women are required to give up their spaces. How dare Man Friday upset the men?

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 22/02/2024 23:19

I am a season ticket holder for the ponds and I went on the Man Friday protest. I have also (once in 5 years of regular swimming) clocked a trans woman using the ponds.

I do find some of the outrage on here excessive. The Ladies pond remains one of the most special spaces I’ve ever experienced. It truly is a safe space and pp is right that there is something so special about it that the occasional trans person can’t break it. I encourage anyone who hasn’t been to visit if they can. It’s honestly so special and the spirit of the space is so strong.

That being said I don’t agree with the current policy (as demonstrated by going on the protest) but that’s not enough to stop me swimming there and I am not convinced that all this manufactured outrage from people who don’t belong to the community is helpful in moving things forward.

the motion at the KLPA is basically irrelevant anyway. The ponds are run by the city of London and the KLPA is essentially a friends of the ponds type association. They don’t have any say over institutional policies and you can be a season ticket holder at the ponds without being a member.

AdrianPimento · 22/02/2024 23:24

there’s no point in talking here but once again:

anyone who is playing stupid games going to either the men or women’s pond when they don’t identify w that gender deserves to be turfed out. The protest was rightly identified - as was the man mentioned earlier, hiding in the bushes - as trying to test/cheat. That not allowed; it’s also not right. Same rules for both.

Given that transmen can now swim at the men’s pond, male space has been - in your view - surely just as undermined as female space has been at KLP. I don’t agree w this way of thinking, but if you do, it surely works both ways. You need to acknowledge the male loss (if it is one) as just as real as the female one.

I love the pond, and swim there most days. I value it because it is, as I have said before, a space where the male way of doing things does not dominate.

i utterly abhor the way in which the ‘women of faith’ argument is bandied about by people who claim to speak on behalf of others but only care about those people in the context of their own narrow concerns. Speak for own self - as I have! - don’t pretend you have the right to speak for others.

Say it as it is: you don’t like it, I don’t mind. Neither of us has any more right to our opinion than anyone else. And absolutely nobody in power is going to listen to any of us!

AdrianPimento · 22/02/2024 23:26

Well said @TimbuktuTimbuktu (hadnt seen your post as I was writing mine)

this is a space women can and do hold and let’s celebrate that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 23:27

Maybe if you'd been less hyperbolic and misogynistic about the women here on FWR, you might come across as more convincing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 23:28

I will stick up for each and every female only space in the world to remain free of role playing males. Either it's a female space, or it isn't. It's as simple as that. And I will have an opinion on anything I like.

StarlightLime · 22/02/2024 23:30

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 22/02/2024 23:19

I am a season ticket holder for the ponds and I went on the Man Friday protest. I have also (once in 5 years of regular swimming) clocked a trans woman using the ponds.

I do find some of the outrage on here excessive. The Ladies pond remains one of the most special spaces I’ve ever experienced. It truly is a safe space and pp is right that there is something so special about it that the occasional trans person can’t break it. I encourage anyone who hasn’t been to visit if they can. It’s honestly so special and the spirit of the space is so strong.

That being said I don’t agree with the current policy (as demonstrated by going on the protest) but that’s not enough to stop me swimming there and I am not convinced that all this manufactured outrage from people who don’t belong to the community is helpful in moving things forward.

the motion at the KLPA is basically irrelevant anyway. The ponds are run by the city of London and the KLPA is essentially a friends of the ponds type association. They don’t have any say over institutional policies and you can be a season ticket holder at the ponds without being a member.

What "community" are you referring to? Females? There are only one category of people who don't belong in the ladies pond.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2024 23:31

City of London ran a deeply dodgy and biased consultation. We all know what happened. Edward Lord boasted about it in a secret trans activist meeting documented by a fantastic undercover Mumsnetter. I had CoL voting rights at the time, I had an interest.

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