Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

So to sum up, the reason separate spaces are unacceptable to trans people is one of the following:

• Trans women want to be in single sex spaces where there are women because they 'need' the women for some reason (fetish, validation, etc). (Counter: this 'use' of other people is not acceptable, especially as it has the consequence of having a negative impact on the other people)

• Trans people want to be in single sex spaces (corresponding to their identity) because they believe they have changed sex and are no longer their underlying sex. (Counter: you cannot change biological sex and it is not reasonable to ask others to adopt an obvious fiction.)

• Trans people would be targets of attack if they used unisex/ third spaces. (Counter: trans people who don't pass are at risk of attack anywhere they go. Trans people who pass won't necessarily be outed just by passing through a unisex toilet door, especially if non-trans people also opted to use such spaces.)

• Third spaces might not be economically viable. (Counter: All modern building standards and other statutory requirements have a cost, and it's a price we are prepared to pay for civilised infrastructure.)

Have I missed anything?

There's a kind of extension that no female-only spaces are permitted to exist even if there is a mixed sex women's provision (or multiple ones) widely available.

If there are consenting women in a mixed sex women designated space that is being nicely called 'single sex' but a separate female only provision for the women who cannot use the mixed sex space - the consenting women won't do. The target is to get to the non consenting women and own them and their space. So it's not so much about a separate space for trans people being unacceptable as the existence of any female space a man cannot own being unacceptable. Regardless of the impact on that female.

See: Willoughby walking a long way to intentionally pee on the territory when a female only space was provided at a distance with a large mixed sex facility directly there, and the current insane tantrums that one single solitary small female only lesbian club is daring to exist amongst all the mixed sex groups everywhere. The horror that a female only rape crisis group could not exist - even in a separate building - alongside 3 separate options that male people with TQ+ identities could choose from, because it's sheer existence was an insult.

It's not about the space, or inclusion, or actual need, or even about both sexes of transitioners. It's all about power, and the control of men over women on a binary, sexed basis.

Good summary.

In short the only possible reason that those advocating for women to lose genuinely single sex spaces (Keir Starmer with his 1% of women with penises and the rest) can have is to consider women not deserving of full human rights, unlike men.

To consider women as resources that it's ok for men to use, even if those women don't consent to that use.

It's not as if there aren't now countless examples of male criminals using self ID into women's spaces to harm women and children (Katie Dolatowski and the rest). So it must be that the people pushing this think it's ok for those women and children to be used in this way.

And even when they go so far as to commit a serious criminal offence, often the sentence isn't that long (Dolatowski) and they're out fairly soon and in a position to offend again - still with access to unconsenting women and girls in so-called (but not really because the providers lie) single sex spaces.

It's not about the space, or inclusion, or actual need, or even about both sexes of transitioners. It's all about power, and the control of men over women on a binary, sexed basis.

This, exactly.

i mean my personal opinion is I don’t think there’s a solution that works for both trans folks and women

And why the fuck is that women's problem to solve?

The solution that works for actuall women is for ALL men to stay out of female only spaces.

I didnt fucking say it was.

@Froodwithatowel right, I get you.

So my first bullet point about need has two sides:

• the need to use women in order to gain a sexual thrill/ validation

and

• the need to have women as an object over which to exert power and control.

Right I'm in for a good old protest march, Greenham Common, Big Women, bra burning, shouty, painted placards - style!!

@Whatsnewpussyhat and @Mintyfreshtulips can lead the charge- just turn the indignation towards the issue not each other! (Your feisty exchange did make me smile!)

I cant burn any more bras, theres no budget for replacement!

If you're quite new to all this, op, and just getting your head around it (as much as possible), the thing that answered where I stood was the Wii Spa.
Woman defending naked women and children in a spa, where an actual bloke with a semi on was sat in the pool with them. She went to complain and was getting shouted down by beardy blokes in reception. Aaargh
Turned out to be a previous sex offender as well, if I remember correctly. ? Best look it up. I can't do it!! Blood pressure.

It depends, of course, on what the objective is.

If the objective is to provide comfortable, safe and dignified facilities for all, then third spaces are the obvious solution.

If the purpose is primarily to provide ego/self validation for trans identified people, then only the facilities which 'coincide with one's gender identity' will do

Mixed sex facilities serve nobody's needs for comfort and dignity, nor do they provide cross sex validation. So what is the point?

You can have perfectly good unisex facilities though. Every office I’ve ever worked at has always had them (which I prefer as I think cubicles are undignified for privacy reasons). A full door and inside is both the toilet the sink and a dryer.
So I’m not against those, I just don’t think in reality developers will ever build them in busy places like a shopping centre.

But that still doesn’t address the reason for gaps under the doors, that if someone’s taken ill it’s much easier to realise and get them help.

My local shopping centre has replaced the old pastel-coloured plywood cubicles with solid metal floor-to-ceiling partitions and doors. I assume this is to make users feel safe, no matter who is on the other side of the partition, but it feels very industrial. The weight of the doors swings them shut when the cubicle is empty.

All this is causing an issue with ventilation. The smells from the previous user's urine or excrement no longer dissipate at the usual rate, because there's less movement of air.

D. Merager.

https://wehotimes.com/trans-wi-spa-suspect-arrested-again-adding-to-long-criminal-history/

Yes this is it. Public loos are a bit undignified. But there are good reasons for the partial door design on cubicles - easy cleaning, access to someone who's passed out, deterrent for anti social behaviour inside the cubicle etc. So people can feel slightly vulnerable/ exposed when using them and the mitigation for that is having single sex loos so people (mainly women) feel less vulnerable when using a cubicle with a partial door.

Frankly if trans women are going to be legally allowed to use women's loos, then surely they are going to have to be designed very differently to accommodate women with penises - eg urinals in the Ladies.

I have been trying to imagine other spaces rather than just loos through. Women's shelters, swimming sessions, yoga classes. A third room/ separate session/ etc is the sensible option for any scenario. I cannot see any valid argument for women sharing these types of spaces with trans women.

Treez they really don't pass. Just because we're not saying anything in the queue at the supermarket doesn't mean we didn't clock it in ten seconds.

I cannot see any valid argument for women sharing these types of spaces with trans women.

Yes but that's because you're seeing women as actual full people with needs, wishes and rights. Not as support and validation toys for the real humans i.e. men. Once you realise that women don't matter if a man wants something, it all makes sense.

Personally I fail to see the logic in that somehow only biological women are magically allowed to enter a toilet just because that’s the rule. How does that actually work in practice?
there’s not like a force field that stops men from entering to commit a crime.
trans women are not the threat to me.
Men who want to commit assaults are.
and those fuckers are everywhere, will go everywhere no matter that the law or rules say.
to me the question is, what are the issues around men exploiting the rule that trans women are allowed in the bathroom? IMO that’s what we are seeing happen with prisons.

Do lock your house when you leave? After all, burglars gonna burgle so what's the point of locking up? if they want to come in they will.

To answer your question, have a meme

I am glad we agree.

There will always be people who commit crimes no matter the rule or the law, but what is the risk for exploitation if there isnt a rule?

Not with you. You think there will be the same amount of risk or less risk to women, if there isn't a prohibition on men in women's spaces at all? Why?

My issue is when people refer to bathrooms as some sacred space that men are somehow unable to enter, law or no law.
Do I think there will be men that would exploit letting transwomen into a womans space? Yes.
Do I think men will continue to commit the crime no matter the law? Also yes.

trans women are not the threat to me.
Men who want to commit assaults are.

And as all transwomen are men then some of those men that commit assaults will be transwomen.

You are right men can just go into a woman's toilets and assault someone. But up until recently the social contract meant men didn't go in the women's toilets so that on the occasions that a wrongun decided to take their chances they stood out like a sore thumb.

Now that every Tom Dick and Harry can call themselves Sally and enter women's spaces it just makes it harder to spot the bad men in amongst all the feel like they are a woman men.

So I'd like all men no matter how they feel, or how they dress, or whatever to keep the fuck out of female only spaces.

There is no difference between a man and a tranwoman. Both are men.