Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

Men are dangerous to women except for the ones who pretend that they’re women too? Have I got that right?

Yes. Now stop. Stop trying to use any reason or logic or common sense or facts.
How about you just stop thinking about it at all because pointing out the contradictory bullshit of gender ideology or daring to question their motives makes these men look bad.

Nope. Nothing to see here......

Yeah I was waiting for someone yesterday at the bottom of a hill that's popular with joggers. Every single time I saw someone crest the hill I could tell if it was a man or a woman. As in even before the lower half of their body was visible, before I could make out hair length, face, body shape, etc. Just the bounce of the top half of a far off silhouette, was enough for me to know their sex every single time. Without doubt, I just knew male from female.

No-one older than 14 passes in real life.

OnceinaMinion · Today 12:01

ive never seen one who actually dresses like a woman, especially a middle aged woman. It’s some weird outdated view of what they wear.

There are at least 6 in my little area of Newcastle. 3 of them do dress in middle aged women's clothes, although one likes their pleated grey skirt, with stocking tops on show. One dresses up in fetish stuff and Nu Rocks. The other two tend to wear, well, tarty looking stuff.

I've never seen any of them in the Gent's.

There's one here who wears a black mini dress, pink flip flops and a bucket hat.

What's middle aged women's clothes? Like jeans and a jumper? I'm a middle aged woman. I wear jeans, jumpers and sportswear. On my feet I wear runners and boots. I'd say my mum and even my grandmother dress more or less the same. I wear more sportswear but I'm very sporty.

So agree and I'll be the first in the clue. Innocent question here. If the TW hasn't fully transitioned, will she commit the same crimes as men about not lifting the lav seat?

I still don't understand how 3rd gender neutral spaces are outing - I've used gender neutral spaces when the women's have been full and I've been desperate - don't get me wrong, I was very on edge, and the lack of sanitary bin was frustrating but like.. it's not the end of the world?
And if bio women can and will use them when they have to, I don't see how it's outing in the slightest - Especially not in this world of Non Binary - Let's say a TW passes and she used the neutral room, who's to say people will assume she's male rather than NB or just a lass desperate for a wee when all the other cubicles in the women's are full???
It's bs.

I don't get why TW can't seem to understand that women do much more in bathrooms than just pee or gasp poop.
Period accidents happen.
Miscarriages happen.
Toddler & Baby accidents happen.
Like, I'm sorry but these things simply DO NOT happen in the men's and TW will never experience or understand them or give women the space and dignity they need in those times.
Validation is King, or should I say Queen to them.

I don't get why TW validation is more important that Bio Women's dignity and privacy for intensely intimate bodily functions...
I don't want to wash off bloody knickers in a sink where a TW could walk in.
Even more so knowing how much periods are... Idk the correct wording, I'm trying to avoid saying fetishized but I don't know how else to describe it when you have TW who exist who are fascinated by them and want to do anything and everything they can to emulate them.
Buying tampons, buying fake blood popper things, feigning cramps for videos online and grinning whilst they do it etc....

And before anyone comes in to say "TW don't do that!" Check out youtube or reddit or tiktok. Yes. Yes they do.
Not all of them, we're not deluded as to think that, but some of them - enough of them for it to be a genuine concern. And as other PP's have said, how are we supposed to tell the difference?
Oh, wait. We can't.
That's the problem so many bio women have with this.

As they say, hips don’t lie! Female and male skeletal structure is very different and we move very differently

This.

Comfy! You’re not going to Sainsbury’s in a mini skirt I imagine. But jeans would be my number one thing, probably linen trousers in the summer for everyday wear.
even my friends who wear office wear now it’s trousers and a nice top.

The young man who frequents my town wears wears short sparkly tops and eyeshadow, heels and shiney leggings which show off his appendage.

Non-argument. After all, most men aren't pervy fetishists who hate women. (Well, I'm not so sure about the last part.) But regardless, they don't belong in our toilets. They are an increased risk for our safety, dignity and privacy. And they piss everywhere.

I don't get why TW validation is more important that Bio Women's dignity and privacy for intensely intimate bodily functions...

Because one of those is the sex that matters, and one is the support human sex. It really is that simple.

You might want to think about how good Shon "enjoy your erasure" Faye is as a poster boy in this debate....

Thanks. Yes I did read some of that. I didn't post though because I am still forming a view. Albeit from a starting position of being a fairly strident feminist, so where I end up is probably pretty predictable. I've been trying to avoid it all for the last few years, then started reading a bit and trying to challenge my own preconceptions, but not intending to get too far into as I believed it was a minor issue. I now seem to be accelerating down the rabbit hole at increasing speed. When and where's the next protest march?!!

alittleprivacy · Yesterday 17:49

Oops, I meant middle class, fairly sensible and conservative, rather than 20 something style going clubbing etc!

I have yet to ever see a valid response to the question of trans men in women’s spaces.

”even if they are fully passing as male?”

I CAN TELL! I’ve got super abilities to tell biological sex!

“eveh if they are fully transitioned and have a penis? I thought we didn’t want a penis in the space? “

Its not a REAL penis!

I know some trans men who if in the bogs at John Lewis would give my Mum the absolute fright of her life.

That's why a lot of transmen use gender neutral facilties, or the men's if they are aware they pass. They know they would freak out women so choose to be respectful.
Because they are women.
Non-passing transwomen have no such respect. Because they are men and don't give a shit about women.
Another tell tale difference.

I do enjoy a lovely sweeping generalisation.

so if we push for sex based bathrooms, your ok with passing and transitioned transmen using them?

Transmen, to state the obvious, experienced growing up female, and therefore in general have a much better understanding of how women feel on this topic. I believe many transmen who use testosterone are fully aware of the effect their presence in women’s spaces would have and therefore they avoid using them.

My personal feeling is that anyone who has undergone the significant bodily changes that testosterone causes, of either sex, to the point where they look obviously male (whatever their sex) should avoid using women’s spaces. Of course, there are detransitioners who look somewhat masculine, but I believe we need to ensure they feel welcome in women’s spaces.

The (over)use of cross sex hormones is undoubtedly going to cause some social problems in the coming years. It’s not going to be easy and I don’t think we should pretend it is.

The difference is : trans men are women. They aren't a threat to men. They are choosing to put themselves in a small degree of danger if they choose to use the gents, rather than inflicting the threat of danger on others.

How people can't tell this whaterboutery isn't the ace in the hole they think it is beggars belief. It's an opposite!

A lot of transpeople might pass, in a careful photo online. Any of the people pictured below might. But a candid photo with other humans, or an encounter in the loos in the real world, is quite different.

I don't know if TRAs ever stop to consider the optics of the (not very)veiled threat that hoards of beefy TM will be scaring elderly relatives in women's loos. Probably not.

We have three in our area,the one I see most often favours a long,floaty skirt worn with a filthy anorak and daps.

My sister's neighbour is a floral leggings and off the shoulder jumper kinda guy and the third one(who I haven't seen since before Christmas)wears a flimsy,see through maxi dress all year round,

I'm not sure that many transmen do pass. I frequently see young women presenting in 'masculine' ways ( men's shirts, sleeves rolled, up, tattoos, downy facial hair) and it is almost as obvious as the men presenting as women; although sometimes it takes a few more observations to confirm.

The Anne Coombes incident is the reason DS no longer has swimming lessons at the Mercure in Sheffield - I'm not on board with allowing anyone into the women's changing room based on 'identity' rather than biology. DS is 6 years old, he's allowed into the women's changing room with me - but a 65-year-old male? Not appropriate or acceptable.

I’m not quite sure of your point?

i am commenting on the issue of sex based toilets working both ways.

i mean my personal opinion is I don’t think there’s a solution that works for both trans folks and women. I really don’t know the solution other than completely taking away cubicle toilets and it always being a standalone unisex bathrooms similar to what we have at work.

The only ones who appear to continually be unbothered are men.