Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

*some trans women

It doesn't matter that it's just 'some' transwomen.

The first transwoman who enters a female only space makes it mixed sex.

And if the rules for that space have decided that a man is a woman if he says so it means that even if no men ever decide to enter that space a certain percentage of women will have to self exclude just in case a man does decide to enter.

Any transwoman acting in good faith is going to respect women’s need for single sex spaces and stay out of them.

Exactly.

I sometimes use the loos at my local railway station. There are still male and female ones, clearly marked. They have a schedule of doing regular ‘security checks’ (not sure why it’s deemed necessary, as it’s quite a quiet suburban station) but the male staff at the station will hammer loudly on the main door of the women’s toilets and announce their intention to enter before putting their heads round the door to look inside (not into the cubicles, obviously - into the space with the washbasins/dryers).

it is clearly understood that it’s a female space so men can enter only if warning/consent is given, and only for specific and limited purposes.

The absurdity is that we’re supposed to believe that if this same male security guard decided he ‘was’ a woman, any need to hammer on the door magically disappears. Nothing would have changed. Just a feeling in his head.

We know that transwomen have definitely harmed women and girls in female spaces. It can't be argued against as it has happened.

I have heard lots of people say that transwomen can't use male spaces as they would be attacked but haven't heard of it actually happening. Transwomen using the gents with no issues is definitely the case as they've told us they do. I do recall there being one who posted a picture of themselves in the gents looking as sexy as they could manage asking us women if they really wanted them to be in the gents with our husbands. The implication being that if they used the gents then our husbands wouldn't be able to resist cheating on us with this fella.

Good men stay out so bad man stand out

Previously if you saw a man in the women's changing rooms or toilets they would be rightly frogmarched out of there.

Now the man in question is asked 'do you feel like a woman' and if the answer is yes then the actual woman is called transphobic so what happens is the women who see a man in the ladies now stay silent despite feeling uncomfortable in that situation.

What has changed is women's ability to say no

Previously if you saw a man in the women's changing rooms or toilets they would be rightly frogmarched out of there.

This.

No one would have had the slightest doubt about the man's intentions, and would have told him so in words of one syllable.

Now men are emboldened to treat women like this in force, having tied women's hands behind them with rainbows and a lot of coercive bullshit. And be patted for their brave stunningness in doing so.

It is looking very much like it will be impossible to satisfy everyone. Worth pointing out that it is the biological women feeling threatened in the Ladies room but the threat in the Gent's would be felt by the trans gents. In fact, the likelihood of either trans women or trans gents being victims of discrimination, shaming, and violence in a changing room or bathroom far outweighs the risk of a trans people having any interest in hurting anyone. I have a sneaking suspicion that being the maternal sex, we are perhaps more kindly disposed to anyone suffering in our society. Do other people feel that way?

Well it's a choice between not satisfying a small number of men who would like to use the women's facilities regardless of impact on women, or making the women's facilities inaccessible and higher risk for half of the population. So it seems fairly obvious, both in numbers and that the first job of women's facilities is to be accessible and inclusive to all women.

Those who do not want to use the spaces for their sex can use a third space, that's their safe and dignified alternative, and their doing that means that no one loses all access so that others can have the additional choice that they want. And many women apparently will be very happy to use mixed sex provision and consent to do so and that's great, not to mention things like dads with daughters/mums with boys, so it's not going to be in any way othering, (other than being clear that no, female people and male people with TQ+ identities are not the same thing), and it would be actually inclusive on multiple fronts.

And my maternal caring instincts are for the women currently excluded, the ones no longer feeling safe or who want to use a facility without the price of it being an excited male doing whatever suits him next to them as they undress, and the the ones who have been assaulted and raped thanks. Those instincts won't lead me to abandon the women and mummy the men, because I'm not insanely sexist.

No. Women aren't support humans; we should not budge up and abandon single sex spaces because it's 'kind' to do so.

Some women simply aren't able to use mixed sex facilities. Why are you happy to abandon them? That isn't being kind to other women; it's sacrificing them for the benefit of men. Just no.

This. Men who were not successful at 'being men' by their view (ie swallowed gender stereotypes and lacked the maturity and courage to be comfortably gender non-conforming). Who do they punish for this? Women because it's easier to bully women than other men. Most were probably bullied and excluded by other men all their lives, often because of autism / same sex attraction or bisexuality / trauma.

They're too afraid to take on toxic male violence so they become perpetrators themselves by forcing themselves into women's spaces. Edited to add - some of the most obnoxious activists are the ones who clearly experienced rejection by women, feel entitled to women's approval and therefore hate women for not being attracted to them.

I see so many parallels between the incel movement and trans activists and autism is a significant factor in both, amongst both men and women. I would have great compassion for both groups under different circumstances but not while they are actively harassing and threatening women who speak out against extreme TRA ideologies.

Worth saying again...

Women aren't human shields, or support humans, or non player characters, or everyone's mum.

Cynically weaponising the early female socialisation of 'be kind' in case (god forbid) the men get hurty feelings is misogyny writ large.

ALWAYS this odd, totally disproportionate drive to be kind to men, a belief that thwarting men is so very very awful - this is being constantly expressed by handwringing politicians,

and yet absolutely no extension of the same values to humans lacking penises. Thwart away, no hesitations there, 'kindness' to them doesn't even enter into it.

Fgs if you're into male supremacism just bloody own it. It is baffling how many people see women as just service units for men and it being the proper place of a woman to kneel and give. Not even equally human.

I am no way suggesting that women should only have mixed facilities to use. I personally would go for the Gent's, Ladies and Other or Trans.

That's not what your post implied you were suggesting. It seemed to be very 'women need to budge up and be nice.'

This is EXACTLY the thinking I encountered when I talked to a transwoman (friend of a friend who I’d know slightly, before he transitioned, when he was a gay teenager). He didn’t refer to bullying women (obviously!), but described how he had felt rejected by his father, then more broadly by other men. His view was that, because of that perceived rejection by male society, women were duty bound to accept him as a woman. 🙄

Yep. It's too scary to tackle bullying fathers (and trust me, I get it) but it's the deliberate lashing out at women that sickens me. It's nothing more than classic kick-the-cat displacement.

You remember when IW shouted 'I am a real woman' at a cornered woman in big brother? It's like that. What these people get out of it, I don't know but it's uncomfortable to watch, let alone experience. Cry bullies.

Cry bully is the perfect phrase. India might as well have just screamed 'Validate meeeee!' I would 100% experience India as an aggressive male in that situation and react accordingly. That would sincerely be my internal reaction, having sadly experienced male aggression throughout my life.

In fact, the likelihood of either trans women or trans gents being victims of discrimination, shaming, and violence in a changing room or bathroom far outweighs the risk of a trans people having any interest in hurting anyone

That's not true. There are documented instances of TW attacking and abusing women and children in women's single sex spaces - google Katie Dolatowski for instance. Women are, off the top of my head, nine times more likely to be assaulted in a mixed than a single sex space.There are no recorded instances of transpeople being harmed in changing rooms or toilets. None. At all.

I have a sneaking suspicion that being the maternal sex, we are perhaps more kindly disposed to anyone suffering in our society. Do other people feel that way?

Our female socialisation has been used against us, time and again in this fight. We have been shamed and berated, told to #bekind, while our rights, dignity, privacy are taken from us. No I am not the world's mum, I do not exist to make transpeople's lives easier, I am an actual person with my own needs,wishes and rights.

nothingcomestonothing · Today 17:36

That's not true. There are documented instances of TW attacking and abusing women and children in women's single sex spaces - google Katie Dolatowski for instance.

Yes; and numerous posters on FWR generally have asked those stating that transw are in terrible danger in the gent's to provide facts and figures, but I haven't seen such a reply.

No I am not the world's mum, I do not exist to make transpeople's lives easier, I am an actual person with my own needs,wishes and rights.

Well said. And actually I am a Mum to two girls and their safety and human rights are more important to me than ANY Man. Safeguarding in schools is being undermined. So the men can fuck off, no matter how sad they are, until that is sorted.

I wish India had stayed in longer so more people could have seen what was going on.

There, India looks how I'd imagine David Soul to look, if he were left by a radiator and melted a bit.

In fact, the likelihood of either trans women or trans gents being victims of discrimination, shaming, and violence in a changing room or bathroom far outweighs the risk of a trans people having any interest in hurting anyone.

This is a completely unfounded assumption.