Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

In fact, the likelihood of either trans women or trans gents being victims of discrimination, shaming, and violence in a changing room or bathroom far outweighs the risk of a trans people having any interest in hurting anyone.

If this is a fact please show your proof. I hear a lot of people making the claim that people with special identities are victims of discrimination and violence in these spaces but when asked for the details it's all tumbleweeds.

*edit to say oh, lots of pp have pointed this out

Not to mention asking women to put their care that a male person doesn't experience discrimination and shaming far above their own needs for privacy, dignity, basic access because some women simply can't use that space any more, and the risk of being used by a male for validation, evidenced sexual enjoyment, evidenced sexual harassment - this stuff is all over the internet with highly excited men one handedly sharing the pictures of them wanking in the women's loos, peeing with doors wide, rummaging the bins for tampons.... and that's apart from the women and girls who actually have been assaulted and raped by men who have TQ+ identities.

But women! Cast aside your needs! Selflessly and in a madly masochistic way, sacrifice your access, your privacy, your safety, your right not to be used by a male all sexually excited, and protect a male from being shamed by other men! Care not that you actually need access to a loo, care not that you're excluded from all facilities, care not that you might be harassed or assaulted because what does harm to you matter when a male person might be shamed!

Throw yourselves in front of them like the human shield mummies you are!

Mad. Absolutely mad.

Well said, and it's even madder when you think not only are women being asked to discard their safety, dignity, access to public life and privacy but also that of their children.

Which is where the pushback starts, in many cases.

I'm betting, for example, that anyone who is a relative of or knows Katie Dolatowski's victims will be a terf / pro single sex spaces.

The trans men decide to put themselves at risk
That is their choice
The trans women decide to put biological women at risk and we have no say on it.

Men are a risk to women. It is why women's single sex spaces were created. It is not the case the other way around. Trans men don't attack and rape men. You can't compare the two scenarios

What Frood said

Third spaces, so that transwomen can avoid the gents, make women happy = bad

Transwomen in the ladies makes women unhappy = good

Unhappy women make penis happy and penis must always be happy

Transwomen also don't consider other transwomen to be women. If they did then being in a space with other transwomen would be fine as they are actual, proper women. Every transwoman is the only one that's really a woman and all the others aren't.

😂
it's true isnt it!!

Because if that were actually true, then that’s because they believe it to be segregation no?

Why would it be segregation if they were with other women when those women were transwomen?

I've seen a couple going into the men's at previous gyms I've attended. I could tell they were defo female. Nobody really batted an eyelid.

Change trans women to any other section of women.

And if by using your logic, they truly believe they are no different from biological women, how would you sign the seperate bathroom? Why would they know to enter it?

Transwomen are a subsection of men, not women.

All adults need to abide by the social contract - the agreements that keeps society functioning because citizens follow the "rules".

Groups can't unilaterally change these because they don't like them. They need public consent and currently there isn't a majority consent for men who claim to be women in women's sport, changing rooms and showers, hospital wards, prison cells etc.

Don’t tell me, tell PP who thinks she’s found a gotcha when she hasn’t.

Change trans women to any other section of women.

There is no 'other' section of women.

Transwomen are men, not a 'section of women'.

Change trans women to any other section of women.

If you're about to say 'black women' .... just don't.

As has been said above, there is no 'other' section of women.

Change trans women to any other section of women.

Because it can’t be said often enough, transwomen are a subsection of men.

Ffs the word 'trans' in 'transwoman' means, literally, 'male'. It means male woman. You cannot be a transwoman unless you are male, it's the one defining requirement.

There is one thing that connects all women, across the globe, in every culture, through all time. And that is their sex.

It's not their clothing, hairstyles, skin colour, body shape or personality. It's simply their sex.

Transwomen, being of the male sex, are not part of the female sex.

Tht wasn’t the point though was it? PP said if trans women are women why are they unhappy sharing a space with other trans women who they also think are women.

why are they unhappy sharing a space with other trans women who they also think are women

Because they don't think the other transwomen are women. That was the PP's point.

You said “change trans women (sic) to any other subsection of women”.

I was pointing out that that makes no sense, because transwomen are a subsection of men. Nothing to do with what any pp said. Just you.

Sure that’s super helpful and relevant - well done

Pleased to be of help.

It's very relevant indeed, though I appreciate perception of helpfulness is subjective.