Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

Trans people don't want them so wouldn't use them. Transwomen want to use women's spaces and things because they believe they are women... Or want other people to, anyway.

Third/open events in sports are fair for women, they have been tried;

''Swimming World Cup category for transgender athletes cancelled after no entries received''
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/03/swimming-world-cup-category-for-transgender-athletes-cancelled-after-no-entries-received

Short answer- they don't want a space, they want the women in the space. The use of the women in the space is the point.

See for examples, India Willoughby, who has written of avoiding a handy unisex loo to deliberately seek out a women only loo further away: or swimming judge Anne Coombs, who got angry at being given the key for a unisex changing room at a hotel pool, and wanted to use the women's changing room.

Transwomen Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander stated a campaign for third spaces, which got no support from transwomen or from charities like Stonewall.

If prominent trans rights charities had fought for third spaces, we'd have fought with them. That isn't what they want.

Trans people aren't a homogeneous mass. Some will want third spaces, others won't. I've seen posters on here argue for and against third spaces too.

Transwomen want to be validated, it's not the space they want, it's the women in there.

Some transpeople are ok with it but many on the more activist side would find it unacceptable as they hold to the line of transwomen are women, transmen are men. So even if there was a third space they wouldn't use it in preference to the women's or men's as it wouldn't validate their beliefs about themselves.

See for example Emily Bridges' latest interview saying that if Emily competes in the "open" category but is excluded from the "women" category, Emily is being excluded from cycling altogether. Because if transwomen are women, Emily is a woman and therefore should be in the women's category (and not in the "third space" of the open category).

The phrase "transwomen are women" is a great example of a thought-terminating cliche.

As others have said - spaces are not the commodity here, women are.

The majority of trans males, the AGP transwomen, don't want them because part of their fetish involves affirmation of themselves as women, even forced. Hence they want to be where women are, because they want everyone to acknowledge that they literally are women, and get off on that. It's a sexual fetish remember. You're not going to be happy with trainers if you've got a high heel fetish.

Because mixed sex facilities don't provide the men who claim to be women with their validation for their special identity or 'euphoria'.

Ruins their fantasy of womanhood if they have to piss around other men.

Likewise with the sports. Too crap to compete against other men so by competing in the women's category they get the prizes without effort.

Just watched Emily Bridges (ex male cyclist, now trans) who was horrified at not being able to compete in women's professional cycling, being interviewed.

Was 'so upset' at not being allowed to compete. Interviewer said, but you are allowed to compete, not in women's, in 'Other' category

Absolutely not an option, apparently

Because, because... fuck knows

Regarding the need for single sex spaces, as there are only 2 sexes, there only needs to be 2 types of sex spaces - male and female.
Born male? Use the men’s etc. Feel like a woman? Tough, you’re still male. And don’t even suggest people using toilets designated to disabled people. Being trans isn’t a disability in and of itself.

They want to use women and girls as props without the women and girls' consent.

That's the main aim of TRA ideology. A lot of 'transgender women' or those who I believe really prefer the term transsexual aren't like this, but the movement itself is all about the use of unconsenting women. If it wasn't, 3rd spaces would be enthusiastically embraced and used. And they're not as above.

It's why they're called the TRAliban because ideologically, there's a lot of common ground.

Right so I get that there is potentially a fetish element to it - /shivers/ - and so it's about being with women. Surely there are plenty of non-protected places to do that? Pubs, night classes etc? But I assume the point is that it has to be women only spaces to feel like a real woman.

That takes me back to the point I made on the other thread...

It seems strange to me that people who purport to be traumatised by being forced to live a lie (in a body they claim isn't right for them) are so determined not only to live a lie (pretending to be 'fully' the opposite sex after transitioning) but to force everyone else to be complicit in that lie.

Aren't third spaces hard to dismiss in this context? Surely the logical conclusion is to campaign for third spaces?

Do transmen happily use the men's loos?

I don't think it's all sexual, sometimes it's just your common or garden women hatred. I think some of them enjoy making women and children feel afraid, particularly if those women and children can't do anything about it. It's abusive.

Why do abusers abuse? Don't know. Trans ideology is coercive control at a societal level. If there's no-one to control they're not interested.

I assume most/all trans people wouldn't agree that it's about fetishisation/ non consensual use of women. So what argument do they put forward? That's it's traumatic not to be able to be themselves... by pretending to be something they're not. Honestly trying to get my head around the arguments and not getting anywhere except to conclude it is all nonsense. If any of you have seen any sane articles or blogs by transpeople explaining why they don't want third spaces, please point me to them. Twitter seems to just be a shouting fest, the media coverage is just click bait and interest group websites are extremely polarised so it's hard to actually hear reasoned debate from the trans side over the shouting. Or maybe all they're doing is shouting because there is no reasoned debate?

There's the argument Bridges uses that it's "outing".
Why would anyone be ashamed of being trans?

SaunteringOnBy isn’t everyone.

Because trans women don't want this. They want women's spaces and sports, and then to grin coquettishly with surprise when they win at all events- because that's what women do. Trans men are pretty silent on this- probably because none of them have ever, or will ever succeed in any male sport......and yet male bodies have no advantage.........

. . . do transmen happily use men's loos / changing rooms etc?

*The only type of mental hat

Mental Hat... Lol.

But that should say
'The only type of men that..'