My son can tell...

[allthevitamins]

Watching 'Inside the Factory' on BBC1 with DS, 10.

Cherry Healy was talking about lightbulbs with Dr Clara Barker, Materials Scientist.

Please note this is not personal in relation to Dr Baker.

Dr Barker is Transwoman.

DS says, 'is that a lady?'.

I say no, it's a man.

We left it at that.

I mean Dr Barker is quite feminine.

But unprompted, my DS knew that Dr Barker is not a woman.

Why should I have to lie to him about this?

I am gender critical and normally agree with mumsnet threads on trans issues, but this thread has annoyed me.

Of course your son can tell. And so what? What’s the issue? Is it that hard just explaining it to your 10 year old? That’s literally the role of being a parent. People look different for a variety of reasons. Just explain it and move on.

I don’t think it’s on, starting a thread with this Dr’s name on it. Anyone could google their name and it would come up. They’re just going about their professional life. They’re not pushing any particular agenda; just existing. It comes across like a personal attack/targeted bullying and it’s uncalled for.

As for the 'intersex progress flag', just explain to your child what that means. Thirteen is more than old enough. “Some people are born with intersex conditions. It’s like a genetic abnormality. For example a man with an extra X chromasome so they have boob growth.” Or whatever.

Intersex isn’t some woke thing that’s been made up.

I can see how important that is for you, and don’t want to diminish that.

However I am at no risk whatsoever of prostate cancer, despite having done nothing to mitigate (or indeed exacerbate) that risk.

There are things I can’t know and have limited capacity to imagine- I will never know what it is like to have been born male, or to be uncomfortable about that for example.

Like you, I do know a lot about juggling hormone medication and the impact that has on my body. I had very limited choices about that. Pregnancy, breastfeeding, contraceptives menstruation and drugs that control bleeding. Hormone soup.

It's not that simple. People with DSD's are not happy about how they are 'used' by the trans movement. The use of the outdated term 'intersex' is part of that.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1731115577257701583.html
Living With XXY says:
'1) So I noticed a few tweets at me that I couldn't see, so got a friend to check & it was all from nasty gendered trolls calling me transphobic &🚫me!

However, if they'd challenge the activists, I wouldn't have to defend my diagnosed condition & lived experience, but hey-ho.

2) It's also cowardice to call me untrue things, before blocking, because they know they don't stand a chance in hell in disputing real immutable facts, so they have a tantrum & throw insults - it's all they can do from their parent's cellars.

3) Maybe rather than doubling down with the liars, actually challenge the bastards that spread lies about DSD conditions.

Challenge them, call them out for being wrong! The fact you don't, makes you just as bad as them!
^^
4) It's why I deem the current trans/gender movement to be all the same, spouting utter lies to justify their own identity(s).

Moral of the story: Don't use other people's experiences that are unrelated to your cause(s), & you won't be challenged for wrongdoing!'

A couple of years back some twit was confidently telling me that there were some people who were born with fully functioning male and female genitalia and they were male AND female. This was a 50 something science grad.

I asked if he got all his knowledge from Greek mythology.

@RainWithSunnySpells Yeah absolutely, agreed. But I think for the sake of explaining to a 13 year, it’s a simple case on explaining what an intersex person is and moving on.

I think the main issue is that if the parent shrugs their shoulders and says it's a man pretending to be a woman just ignore, no big deal, is that if her child says that in a school setting all hell will break lose. Children have been sent to detention for it, they have been bullied by their peers, the curriculum is taught TWAW and anything less is transphobic. How can she teach reality but also protect her child from school? Some children have even resorted to recording their teachers threatening them. It is that bad.

Lunch break!

@PurpleSparkledPixie that's exactly it.

What he sees, what his parents say, and what school (potentially) says are all different. On the potential really important matter of discerning the sex of an adult, probably in passing, in a public setting.

Also re a few PPs... I don't have a problem with people with DSDs whatsoever, or with explaining this to my older child.

However I do have a problem with people with DSDs being co-opted into the 'intersex progress flag' (not my name for it) which is now flying, in my opinion as a political statement (because 'belief' in trans- identities as something that public bodies should champion, is again in my opinion a viewpoint, and not a statement of fact), on a public building very close to my home. Further, how the hell do I explain this to my 13 year old who's sat in the back of the car (10 year old in the front) as we whizz by on the way to Tesco on a Sunday afternoon?

If school were to cover what that flag represents in PSHE or whatever I'm sure it would be 'This flag represents gay people, trans people and intersex people (as one homogenous group no less) and they are all very persecuted and we should be kind to them'. I don't want my 13 yo to believe that, because as PPs have rightly said, it's complex and nuanced, but here we are dozens of posts in, deciding what to do about it!!

I could have been to Tesco and back many times by now!

As for Dr Barker... well Dr Barker chose to appear on that programme, talking about lightbulbs, aired by our National public service broadcaster. I'm a licence-fee paying member of the public and I can have and share any opinion that I want about Dr Barker, provided its legal.

I've not come on here to criticise Dr Barker's hair or use of language. Dr Barker is a natal born male who has chosen to present themselves on national TV in what is considered to be the conventional attire and form of address of a woman.

That was confusing to my son and I'm bloody sure I've got a right to ask questions and seek views about that!

@PurpleSparkledPixie I didn’t say just dismiss/ignore though, I said explain.

”He is a man but chooses to dress and live as a woman. Some people think that makes him a real woman. Other people disagree. People are referring to the Doctor as “she” to be kind and respectful. If you decided to call the Doctor “he” instead you could get into trouble at school or work for example, because some people would find that unkind. It’s up to you what you think.”

Or even: “He was born a man but chooses to dress and live as a woman. Most people agree we should call her a woman to be kind and respectful to her feelings. What do you think?”

It’s not that hard to explain things honestly to children. I’d have no trouble explaining this simply to my five year old, let alone a ten year old who has likely been exposed to some concepts already.

But the fact of the matter @Greenshrub is that Dr Barker is not, and never can be a woman, any more that I could be a cat, or a fish, or a pencil.

Telling our children to ignore and override what they see in the name of 'being kind' is wrong in my view, because so many bad things could happen due to that (note I say 'could' not 'will').

I'll take my child's safety over the feelings of, and 'kindness' towards any man or men (or women, if that's the case) any day.

So the answer is, "yes, that's a man, he likes to dress in what a lot of people would say are 'women's' clothes and be called a ' women's' name. We can do that but it doesn't change the fact that he's a man. "

And yes the pronouns don't bloody work for this, but I'm not tying myself up in knots about pronouns for my 10 year old.

"Confidentiality can become mystery can become secrecy (hope not) I fear."
@allthevitamins thank you for this succinct description of the safeguarding nightmare that is gender ideology.
And, WE USED TO KNOW ALL THIS.
I feel so frustrated, as the parent of a toddler, that things have gone so far backwards.
No, frustrated isn't the right word.

Who wants to be a millionaire.. Grandson ( age 10) is that a man (.Gemma in yellow top).. no it's a lady..
He wouldn't give up..
Then said.. l think she's trans.
( his Mum is a lesbian with a partner so knows all about LGTB).

I just don’t get it. It’s not hard to explain anything in a neutral way to your child @allthevitamins . Trans people exist - do you think they shouldn’t be doctors/scientists or be on the BBC? For me personally, I don’t believe trans woman should be in female-only spaces. But it’s very extremist and prejudiced to expect them to not be on tv or to simply exist in their professional life.

Some people believe in God, or the afterlife, or having five wives, or whatever. Your children will come across all sorts in their life, all sorts of different opinions and ways of living. Just explain it to them in a factual way. “Some people think this. What do you think?”

”They are a trans woman. It’s a man who has decided they would rather be a woman and have people call them ‘she’.” Job done. I actually don’t think it’s confusing at all.

Try not doing it then!

It's the only reason you are here. You certainly aren't here for the reasons women are, which is to discuss how to get our equality act exemptions back from the men that decided they want to use them.

Barker does push an agenda.

But the fact of the matter @Greenshrub is that Dr Barker is not, and never can be a woman, any more that I could be a cat, or a fish, or a pencil.

Personally I agree! But they are a trans woman. Or transgender person, if you prefer. “They are a transgender person. Most people would call them a trans woman. It’s a man who is dressing and living as a woman.”

I did NOT say to tell them they have to lie to be kind. Read my posts again to see how I worded it if you want.

In the same way I wouldn’t tell my child “God isn’t real.” I would say “Some people believe in God. Mummy and daddy don’t really. What do you think?”

@Greenshrub

You say your explanation would include "He is a man but chooses to [...] live as a woman"

This makes no sense. What does "live as a woman" mean and how is it different to "living as a man"?

If you are female you live as a woman and if you are male you live as a man.

You also say "trans people exist". I think it's worth thinking about what your definition of "trans" is. It seems to be very broad (to include cross dressers) and/or incoherently defined in terms of a "gender identity", which is based on very much contested beliefs.

Lastly, you say "It's a man who has decided they would rather be a woman and have people call them she". I think it's worth teaching children that no one can make them call a man "she".

#JustSayMan

Op you must be aware that you’ve posted in an echo chamber.

anyway.
remember your 10yo has to live in this world

you should have said, dr barker was born male. But dr barker was very unhappy and changed name and is now called Clara, which is a woman’s name. Dr barker is a transwoman, because if you are male, you cannot change your dna and you are still male in your blood/bones etc but you can change your clothes, name and sometimes your body, although this is extremely painful. Therefore dr barker prefers to be referred to as “she” because although she was born male and is still male, she prefers to be a transwoman. And it’s is therefore polite to respect that and use “she”.

and then answer questions

you can state facts, but do it so that you don’t hurt other people.

@Greenshrub - It’s a man who is dressing and living as a woman.”

We keep seeing it written but nobody can clarify what living as a woman entails (disregarding the rubbish that dressing as a women equals wearing a dress). What do you think it means?

I also see you ignored the part about the school curriculum and teachers being completely differently to how you will be explaining it to your children. You, me and the OP all view it as one way (yay!) Out there it is totally different, we see it time and again in news articles, court cases, ET, and even recordings done by the children themselves. I think you are going to be in for a shock soon.

she prefers to be a transwoman. And it’s is therefore polite to respect that and use “she”.

No! It is not polite to women to call a man she.

I don't think it is that simple...

the minute you take an approach of we think x / others think y / what do you think - you are building in them an expectation that anyone can believe whatever they want and for them that is the new reality and truth - the fundamental issue of today's world.

there are times when we have to teach children that there are absolutes and truths - despite what others may claim - we need the moral courage to teach children to stand up against the deconstructivist society we live in where it is better to have no reality or any reality you like rather than accept the actual reality and then have to live with the consequences that come from it...

"this is a man who has become a woman - being nice means going along with the charade and then they won't be upset" is so fluffy and 'easy' which is why it is the peddled rubric...

how much tougher to deal with the reality: "this is a man who would like to be a woman, so is dressing up as a woman even though they are a man - they want you to pretend that they are a woman and let them share the girls' changing room and toilets even though they are still a man..." which is the actual reality with all the safeguarding and other issues that brings with it...

of course we as adults can go with this new reality - but it is not truth and it only brings with it an ability to cause hurt and harm:

• it means that children going through that process are irredeemably harmed - physically, emotionally and mentally
• it means that the individuals concerned will not get the help they actually need - mental health support / help for body dysphoria etc.
• it means that women in particular are at increased risk of violence and abuse
• it means that women have removed from them their sense of self-identity
• it means that we are all required to enter a world of deception and pretence
• it is a safeguarding risk and very often it is direct abuse to minors when they are encouraged to transition.

how is any of that better than telling the truth - yet the truth is complicated and tricky to explain - so no, it is not easy or simple - not unless you wish to suborn logic, truth and reality into the fantasy world being peddled...

tl;dr: The Doctor is a man who wants to be a woman.

We are talking about explaining things clearly to a child, here.

Waffling on with assumptions about some rando (we have no idea of said Doctor's feelings and what child needs the pain of gender reassignment surgery explained to them?!) and adding on a nice dollop of coercive 'be kind' at the end is going to leave you with a confused and possibly resentful child.

Be clear.

It's a man who wants to pretend to be a woman.

This particular male is a transwoman, so it’s appropriate to use “she”

How do you know, did you ask?