My son can tell...

[allthevitamins]

Watching 'Inside the Factory' on BBC1 with DS, 10.

Cherry Healy was talking about lightbulbs with Dr Clara Barker, Materials Scientist.

Please note this is not personal in relation to Dr Baker.

Dr Barker is Transwoman.

DS says, 'is that a lady?'.

I say no, it's a man.

We left it at that.

I mean Dr Barker is quite feminine.

But unprompted, my DS knew that Dr Barker is not a woman.

Why should I have to lie to him about this?

Laws do 'tar everyone with the same brush'. That, in a way, is what the Rule of Law is, a way of ensuring that the law can apply, without fear or favour, across the board. There are defences in place for many criminal offences of course, but prima facie the methodology is to say 'this law applies here because of this societal risk'. The idea that we would accept that men are women just because some/many/most men who want to be women is nice, is irrelevant.
The reasons TM don't get discussed anywhere near as much because firstly the balance of power is in favour of actual men so by men accepting TM into their spaces, men are not losing any rights, and interlinked to this, TM are biologically female so have the same issues at population level around being smaller, weaker and slower as the rest of their sex class.

That should have been 'are' nice, not 'is' nice 😂

The argument here is apparently based on fact and comes from a place of safeguarding. Yes, there are certainly places that should remain female only for safety and privacy reasons. I have never said this should not be the case. But trans people are people too. And this thread does not take those peoples needs and rights into account. Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone else for a change instead of just declaring war on all trans folk.

I think ‘quite feminine’ is a very kind description.

But trans people are people too. And this thread does not take those peoples needs and rights into account.
What rights do trans need/want/deserve, other than the rights that all human beings have?

Trans people have exactly the same rights as everyone else of their sex.

Certain boundaries exist for safeguarding reasons. Those boundaries are drawn where they are for very specific reasons.

There is no reason to ignore them for particular kinds of people. Not for clergy. Not for head teachers. Not for police. Not for trans people.

Safeguarding is everyone’s responsibility and restrictions apply to everyone. If you’ve ever worked in a safeguarding role in a voluntary organisation, you’d know there are constant challenges to safeguarding- oh I’ve known Fred years, he’s ok; oh but I’ll only be next door, so it’s fine; right but we’ve done it this way for 40 years and no one else has had a problem with it. And you know all those people wanting exemptions are right- they probably are safe as houses.

But it’s like removing one panel from a fence. The rest of the fence is now completely useless and anyone can come and go as they wish- not just harmless old Fred, but absolutely anyone.

Women are people too. By which I mean, the actual boring old service human cunty kind. When you can find evidence that TQ+ political people care about this, do pop back and share, because that's kind of the root of this thread and all these threads.

The total lack of reciprocation. Ever heard the phrase 'you can only bring 50% of any relationship to the table?'

not apparently - it is based on fact, boring though it is to keep repeating it we are all born a sex and remain that sex the rest of our lives what ever we do to our bodies with hormones and surgery / whatever we wear / whatever name we use / whatever we claim to be - no-one is choosing that, it is a scientific / biological fact that no-one chan change because it just is.

the safeguarding alerts and red flags are all over the place - this will come back to haunt a lot of people in future years - "but I was being kind" they will say, but that won't make up for children that have been abused and whose lives are being wrecked.

of course those who claim to be 'trans' are still people - but they have the same rights as everyone else:

• right to use a loo - all yours, you are born a man - there are the men's loos
• right to use a changing room - there is one for every one - men's for those born a man / ladies' for those born a woman
• etc.

no-one has a right to pretend to be a different sex and wreck things for everyone else - no man has a right to pretend to be a woman and use the women's changing rooms meaning that whole swathes of women now have nowhere to use...

we are putting ourselves into the shoes of each player on the stage of life and doing so tells us some very clear things:

• most of what is being said from a trans perspective is either lies (that you can change sex etc.) or the result of mental health issues - we should fight the first and help treat the second
• most of the impact is on women
• most of the impact is coming from a few very vitriolic and abusive men who are anti-women and see this as a way to try to destroy them (not that they will ever succeed, but it will be painful!)

The right to make everyone else say/think/believe what is blatantly untrue isn't exactly a ‘right’ is it?

So what happens when a female who dresses as a male and has taken hormones which means she’s developed muscle tone and facial hair meaning she looks very much like a man, enters the female toilets or changing room? Women would kick off, even if that person explained they were female. You’d then have the fear that actual men were claiming to be trans-men to gain access to female only spaces

So what happens when a female who dresses as a male and has taken hormones which means she’s developed muscle tone and facial hair meaning she looks very much like a man, enters the female toilets or changing room? Women would kick off, even if that person explained they were female.

This point has been addressed many times on this forum. It is unlikely women would kick off. Women are much better than men at distinguishing between the sexes. The stature, brow shape, shoulder width, hip width, hand and feet size would be recognizable as that of a woman.

….Women are much better than men at distinguishing between the sexes….

There are some posters on this thread that clearly can’t tell the difference. They believe men that identify as women actually are women. Hard to believe I know but we must make allowances. Meanwhile, I wholeheartedly agree that women, the genuine kind, can tell. Maybe it’s because we haven’t been brainwashed.

You know, sometimes we make choices that limit our options.
If you have a mastectomy, you can’t breastfeed effectively for example.

It’s wrong for one person to limit everyone else’s options because of choices they have made.

I believe that someone women successfully pass as transmen. Particularly when they aren’t speaking. They probably need to use third spaces for the dignity of men and the comfort of women. They have decided to transition. That is one of the costs.

This is the 'if you don't let men in to your spaces quietly like good girls you'll have to deal with women looking like men and then you'll be sorry' thing, which has been tried 100 times.

The problem is the need for women to have a space that male people respect and stay out of. That's it. That's all. Female people can present however they want. And oddly enough, female people with TQ+ identities tend to be a whole lot more aware and caring about other female people, and act with consideration. I've clocked that a bearded person is female in two seconds when they've smiled and said hi, and my whole body has relaxed because female people are not a threat.

And before we start on the 'butch lesbian' myth again put around to try and bludgeon women into giving up privacy and dignity for men to enjoy them and their spaces against their consent? Which is bloody dire behaviour? IF it is happening at all, it's happening because male people are trying to deceive their way into women's spaces and women have become wary and untrusting.

It's the usual thing isn't it? Male people with TQ+ people create a problem. Male people whinge about the problem they have created. And demand that women find ways to accommodate and sort out the problem for them. In ways that require no effort from male people, or any kind of responsibility for male people, or present any boundaries to male people.

The desired outcome of this line is that women say 'oh we can't tell who's male and who's female and we surrender, men can cavort in our spaces and we'll submit or fuck off'.

Not going to happen. And it's a bloody vile attitude towards women and their needs and voices. Absolutely bloody horrible. Decent people don't behave like this.

So what happens when a female who dresses as a male and has taken hormones which means she’s developed muscle tone and facial hair meaning she looks very much like a man, enters the female toilets or changing room? Women would kick off, even if that person explained they were female.

The other week I got off a train and as I walked up the platform I passed a group of people standing by the train door. They were all wearing trousers, jumpers, jackets and all had very masculine haircuts, much shorter than the pixie cut I've worn in the past. They were standing still, I couldn't hear their voices for the racket of the station, and I was past them in seconds. I could still recognise them as a group of women by face and body shape.

THIS.

Ultimately, the people arguing for men in women's spaces don't like women saying 'no' or having the ability to decide for themselves.

It's very close to Taliban thinking - these people think biological females are not fully human and should only exist to support male bodied humans, however they identify.

The cases of transmen being narcissistic and demanding and dominating are far far fewer than for transwomen. It just shows you can't get away from sex.

Telling male from female is an evolutionarily hardwired instinct in many mammals (not just humans) particularly for the large gamete producers (also known as females).

It shows the misogyny that because men aren't as good at this particular skill of recognising sex, no matter how much attempt to disguise, they think it doesn't exist.

It's the whole 'oh, women can't actually have independent experiences and thoughts that are different from ours' Talibanesque misogyny again.

Completely bizarre to me that anyone thinks that telling men and women apart is difficult. It really isn't. The very survival of our species over millenia is based on individuals knowing which other individuals they can reproduce with.

Well done all of you superior women who can always tell 100% of the time if someone is male or female. I stand very much with woman having women-only safe spaces and understand the fear of abusive men trying to find new ways to get into female spaces to cause harm. But, there also has to be a level of respect for people who are genuinely trans. And this forum is very dismissive of them, simply saying they already have the same rights as everyone else when this is not the case. If a trans person asked you to address them by their chosen pronouns don’t call them out in public or privately as being ‘different’. I won’t be posting again so don’t worry about trying to justify such views

Respect is mutual and earned, if it's healthy. It is not coerced. It is not owed. It cannot continue beyond being abused.

Also, please define "genuinely trans".

How do we tell who is genuinely trans and who isn't?

But trans people do have exactly the 'same rights' as everyone else. I've never yet been told of a 'right' that they don't have that non-trans people do.
It always seems to boil down to 'but I'm not respected because you won't use my pronouns' or something.
But there is no 'right' in law to have people say exactly what you want them to say. There are human rights, under the Human Rights Act. Those apply equally to trans people as to non-trans people.
Obviously trans people can't have extra rights. Why should they? Especially seeing as the biologically male trans people already have the extra benefit of being in a patriarchy.

Sorry - this is not right…
as I have posted above - those (tiny few) who have genuine body dysmorphia are very much deserving of sympathy and empathy… I would support treatment for them though I do believe it is more of a mental health issue than something which is fixed by chopping up the body…

the vast majority on the current band wagon are either malicious or have been sucked into something they don’t fully understand as a vulnerable person…

again - sympathy for those who have been sucked in - less for those who are malicious

how do you tell the difference?
not fool proof but generally the genuine ones will be more respectful of women - not demand things at the cost of others

those who are abusive and issue death threats and demand ‘rights’ they don’t need at the cost of the more vulnerable - well not difficult to judge

All legal rights are precisely the same in the UK. There is no right anywhere in the human rights documentation to falsify documentation to your preferred fiction, nor to compel others to participate in beliefs they do not hold, nor to compel speech. The 'right' being sought is basically to have primacy over other people and to subordinate their (actual, legal, existing) human rights to your wishes.

That isn't a 'right' anyone should have, and it's not one that any decent person would want either.