Page 6 | My son can tell...

allthevitamins · 2024-02-18T20:33:07+00:00

Watching 'Inside the Factory' on BBC1 with DS, 10. Cherry Healy was talking about lightbulbs with Dr Clara Barker, Materials Scientist. Please note this is not personal in relation to Dr Baker. Dr Barker is Transwoman. DS says, 'is that a lady?'. I say no, it's a man. We left it at that. I mean Dr Barker is quite feminine. But unprompted, my DS knew that Dr Barker is not a woman. Why should I have to lie to him about this?

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 02:43

negeme · 19/02/2024 22:42

This 'trans people exist' trope:

Of course if 'trans people' means 'people with no heads or bodies', then, no, trans people don't exist.

But if 'trans people' means 'people who think they have changed sex', then, yes, trans people do exist.

So, now, the $64000 question: if 'trans people' means 'people who have actually changed sex', do trans people exist? This question may elicit different responses. Clearly enough, it goes proxy for another question, viz, can people actually change sex?

The answer to this latter question is simply no. But of course that's too obvious. Hence, to muddy the waters and hide behind resulting opacity, we get this nonsense of 'denying existence'.

I don't deny your existence, @ButterflyHatched. I just point out you haven't changed sex. No-one has.

Convince me otherwise. Explain why you think I'm wrong. But please, please, leave off with this 'denying the existence of trans people'. It's just such an obvious tired attempt at fallacious equivocation.

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I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex. I don't spent my days worrying about the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

NotBadConsidering · 20/02/2024 03:01

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 02:43

I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex. I don't spent my days worrying about the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

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I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex

You haven’t. No one has. Ever. There is nothing to prove. It’s impossible.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

This is your belief. But it’s objectively not true. Is this what “living as a woman” means? Really, really believing it? It’s not clothes. So can someone demonstrate they are “living as a woman” by just saying they believe they are?

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

No part of your body is female, medically or otherwise. It’s not an “ontological essence”. It’s just reality.

How can someone tell if a male they see is trans or not? What is “living as a woman” other than that person internally believing that’s what they’re doing?

akkakk · 20/02/2024 07:05

I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

Ahh the modern view that all beliefs are valid regardless of whether they are based in truth!

the world is made up of some things with nuance (do you like cheese - nuanced - there are a variety of answers and rarely is it 100% yes or no)

and some things which have zero nuance (a dog is a dog not a table, inanimate objects will never come alive and human sex is immutable).

so every human is born male (-> boy -> man) or female (-> girl -> woman) there is no nuance, no option to change…

interestingly the whole trans movement is known as transgender not transsex which is itself an admission that sex is immutable

so when anyone born male claims to be a woman we know they can not be referring to having changed sex because that is impossible, so they must be using ‘lazy ontological essences’ (by which I assume you mean words!) to try to redefine what they are saying to give the impression of something else…

the issue is that words have meanings to bring clarity to the world, hijacking a word to try and fool others into believing something impossible is true is a deceit and a lie.

no matter how much anyone says that a transwoman is a woman, it will never come true - the evidence is in the statement - the two words are different!

the issue with trying to do this is that the trans movement has to redefine ‘woman’ to make this work (it is why the GRA is flawed!) and it only works by reducing the concept of a woman to a list of cliched stereotypes (dress / lipstick / hairstyles / etc) - but anyone who is an observer of humans realises that the only commonality amongst women is that they are born female - after that they can be any shape or type of woman they want, so it is impossible to use reductive lists to define a woman, and we circle back, if the only common defining feature of a woman is being born female, a male can never do that so they can’t become a woman!

but, I hear the cry! There is a need for a word to describe those born male who feel female who feel more comfortable looking like a woman - great, that is important, we all like to be defined and words bring clarity - but they don’t get to use the word woman as it is already taken and there is no way they can ever meet the established definition… a ‘trans woman’ is a man and can never be a woman whatever linguistic games are played…

you need a word for those born male (how about man) and a word for those born female (how about woman) there is no nuance in how you are born so equally there is no nuance in those words… that is reality and no one has the ability to change it - it simply is…

(and let us celebrate nuance where it exists - I love cheese, but not the strong stinky smelly feet cheeses - what is your nuanced view on cheese?!)

sanferryanne · 20/02/2024 07:24

@ChelseeDagger Which page is that? I vaguely recall something like that n

Original poster

allthevitamins · 20/02/2024 07:33

@akkakk thank you again.

I love your cheese analogy. Indeed people's liking for cheese falls on a spectrum. Personally... the smellier the better, but nothing with fruit in it thank you very much :-).

I have learned so much from this thread, not least that I'm ok with what I'm doing (muddling through).

And seriously, how on earth do I explain nuanced ontological essences to my 10 year old while we're watching Sunday night telly? The answer is I can't, I don't need to, I shouldn't need to.

What my DS sees and hears is dissonance... this person has been introduced to him as a woman... this person is also dressed like a woman (as far as his own cultural frame of reference extends) and yet what he sees is a man? It's ok to tell him that his eyes do not deceive him.

I was thinking about the whole Father Christmas / tooth fairy / Easter bunny angle too. Why is is it ok to 'lie' To our children about this, when I struggle with the deceit that a man can be a woman?

I haven't got a scientific or well-articulated answer.

But these are mythical beings that children do know no-one ever really sees. They are kind beings, they bring gifts. And there is no deceit/dissonance that Father Christmas is actually a toy thief dressed in red.

Safeguarding has to come first for me every time. If something bad happened between my son and a stranger, I'd want him to be able to accurately and confidently tell me whether that person was male or female (along with e.g. old or young? What ethnicity? How were they dressed?).

Like many parents, I've drilled my DC about what to do if they get lost in a public place... look for me or DH, find someone who works there or security/police, if all else fails find a mum (woman) with a pram. My kids need to be able to safeguard themselves too, and to trust what they see and understand for themselves.

OP posts:

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/02/2024 07:42

Great posts akkak, & allthevitamins. Posts that are outward looking, empathic and thoughtful about others and society, especially children and women.

Sometimes I just use a simple word count when reading a post - counting the number of times the words I, me and my are used is often very revealing.

pickledandpuzzled · 20/02/2024 07:56

@allthevitamins I didn't lie very much at all about Father Christmas. The rest of the world did it for me. I stuck to the ‘I don’t know what do you think?’, line and it worked really well.

I did provide the stockings and their contents! But FC didn’t come in the bedrooms. Who would encourage the idea strange men could visit your bedroom secretly at night?

Lougle · 20/02/2024 08:02

I am very pro-woman. I think 10 is well old enough to understand that different people have different views.

I don't see what's hard in saying "Oh yes, that person decided that they didn't want to be a man anymore, so they have chosen a female name and they wear clothes like a lot of women do." If there is a follow up question "People can't change their sex because that is their biology."

Conversations get more complex with age.

niadainud · 20/02/2024 08:03

allthevitamins · 18/02/2024 20:58

Oh well this is a relief!!

Now how on earth do I explain the 'intersex progress flag' that has appeared on a local public building?

DS (13) asked about this.

I said it was 'a political statement' and I didn't agree with it being flown on public buildings. I said it was a development of the Pride flag but I thought that it represented a lot of people's feelings, rather than facts, which I didn't think was right for a public building.

Why is this so difficult?!

I feel like these difficult situations are being imposed on me as a parent!

Can you explain what you mean by this? How is intersex a political statement? How does it represent feelings rather than facts?

akkakk · 20/02/2024 08:05

I agree - fruit does not belong in cheese - on the cheese board, yes, but not in the cheese…

the question about Father Christmas, tooth fairy and the Easter bunny is I think a different type of discussion - imagination and stories and creativity are all acceptable…

perhaps the biggest difference though is about intent and harm… Father Christmas is about bringing some mystery and magic and fun to giving presents…

that is very different from the trans debate…
with the whole concept of ‘trans women’ we have to gently unpick it and look at why…

at the heart of it are genuine people with genuine body dysphoria - and society must have sympathy and concern and love for those people… but that group is not the group who wish to redefine the word woman… they are not the people who wish to be natal males demanding to use female spaces - they are not the people who wish to demand that everyone else change to suit their shape of the world…

so we need to challenge those who are doing things that can bring harm - and this is at the heart of safeguarding - demanding that any man can use female spaces - that is not about a gentle solution to a mental health issue - that is predatory… and so we work our way through the demands and claims…

as above - nuance is important… we need to see the detail and understand the motive - ultimately it really doesn’t matter if a bloke wears pink (I am male and half my shirts are pink - I even have pink trousers!) it doesn’t matter if a bloke wears a skirt - I am part Scottish, and would have no issue wearing a kilt but none of that makes me a woman! If though a male demanded to use the female changing rooms, there can only be a few reasons - a sexual reason / a power reason / a control reason etc - none of them are healthy, none acceptable and all are safeguarding issues

I think that historically it was easier to see analogies with imagination and story telling - there is a long tradition of eg pantomime dames which is exactly that - but those days are gone and any sense of role play has been lost - it has become a more serious game and discussion…

children though do still thankfully have great imaginations and live dressing up and role playing - and that is to be encouraged… the challenge is to separate what they see adults doing - an adult dressed up as Father Christmas is role play - a man dressed to pretend to be a woman is not - can you explain all that to a 10 year old - possibly not, a 13 year old - easier a 17-18 year old sure.

The trans movement very deliberately plays a game of trying to make it hard to differentiate, but it is no different an education process for children than for them to grow up realising that not all humans are honest - a young child doesn’t have that discernment - an older child does…

so for now - I don't think that Father Christmas etc is an issue, for safeguarding your principles are good - and gradually at age appropriate stages more can be taught

Helleofabore · 20/02/2024 08:13

Lougle · 20/02/2024 08:02

I am very pro-woman. I think 10 is well old enough to understand that different people have different views.

I don't see what's hard in saying "Oh yes, that person decided that they didn't want to be a man anymore, so they have chosen a female name and they wear clothes like a lot of women do." If there is a follow up question "People can't change their sex because that is their biology."

Conversations get more complex with age.

Except that then tells a 10 year old that people can just not be a man if they don’t want to be one. How confusing to a kid who doesn’t have the depth of understanding around the fact that gender is purely belief driven and it is never possible to change sex?

Lougle · 20/02/2024 08:15

I don't think it does. I think it accurately tells them that this man decided that he didn't like being a man, so he's chosen to wear women's clothing.

akkakk · 20/02/2024 08:20

Part of that difficulty is that we want to do two things:

show children that gender stereotypes are not important and that they can be the boy or girls they want to be
show children that a man can’t become a woman

yet for children the only way they know to differentiate is through gender stereotypes - using genitals to identify would open up a whole other world of issues!

so I don’t think it can ever be simple now and I am certain that is deliberate…

I think I would combine both the above - explain why someone dresses that way - but also reiterate the biology… it probably has to be done slightly differently for each child

Marylou62 · 20/02/2024 08:21

akkakk · 19/02/2024 19:07

It is difficult - I have had involvement in safeguarding for over 30 years - one of the fundamental basics is honesty and transparency, there is no room for deceit / hiding things / not telling parents - these are all huge red flags in safeguarding / grooming...

the issue we have here (which is very sad) is that:

there is a small group of people who have genuine body dysphoria - for whatever reason they are not happy with who they are physically or who society tells them they are - often society is to blame, gender and sex based stereotypes help no-one.
however, which changing physical appearance and taking drugs to change hormones can give the surface perspective of resolving issues - it deals only with the symptoms, not the underlying cause which is almost entirely going to be mental health based...
for some reason in recent years and growing exponentially we have had a mainly separate group who have adopted the 'trans' label as a mechanism to weaponise a different battle - the age old man v. woman - twisting and changing words and logic to build this fantasy that somehow you can change biological sex. This group has little overlap with the first group and is most obvious in those who are men who don't go through any changes but claim to be women - the 6'4" bearded chap in a dress who somehow thinks that lipstick and a blouse with pearls makes him a woman!
This latter group has predominantly aggressive and deconstructive strategies to take apart society's established beliefs - esp. around women - it has little to do with the much gentler and introspective nature of those who have genuine body dysphoria...
However, to achieve this it is necessary to smash through norms and accepted patterns - the minute their agenda is up for rational debate it fails (as thank goodness we are increasingly seeing). That very aggressive and destructive approach is in its nature bad for safe-guarding

I think that the simplest way to handle this with children (from an even younger age than yours) is to look at positives - talk about how the child is a girl / is a boy - but they get to define what kind of boy / girl they become - so 'you are a girl, that is how you were born - but what would you like to do - would you like to climb trees, great, let's go and do that / would you like to be a nurse / engineer / oil-rig foreman - great, let's help you do that...' or 'you are a boy, it is how you were born, but of course you can wear a princess dress, isn't it fun - are there other ways we can make things sparkle and look amazing? you would like to express your emotions / be physical / do parkour / sit and have a cuddle and read - all fine...'

When they ask about others, just explain that they are a man / woman, but they like to wear dresses - how do you think that is good / bad - must be tricky to climb a tree in a dress, but looks amazing - etc.

When you then get the questions about - anyone can change / a man who claims to be a woman - the simple answer is 'no darling, we know that you are born a boy / girl, that can't change - however some people are a bit confused so sometimes they think you can but we know it is not possible... etc.

It sounds as though you are doing a brilliant job of parenting - it is not easy!

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Thankyou for writing so clearly exactly what I feel and can't quite put into words.

One of my closest friends has an young adult DC who is Trans and even she thinks the same as you/me..

The trans community has been hijacked by some very violent and aggressive men indeed.

OP my DCs are adults and my DGS is a baby but I'd hate to be navigating this with pre/teens.
Sounds like you are doing a good job though.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 20/02/2024 08:28

I remember when I studied psychology the more was an experiment - you’d put a cat mask on a dog and ask a child if the animal was a cat or a dog.

I tried this on my niece (and our poor dog) who was 3 at the time and she looked at me like I was mad and said ‘it’s a dog, you silly!’

Out of the mouths of babes and sucking…

theilltemperedclavecinist · 20/02/2024 10:20

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 02:43

I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex. I don't spent my days worrying about the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

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Have you always thought about it in this tortuous way, or was there ever a time when you just thought "I'm a male transexual who wants to be treated like a woman as far as is practical (which is not very far, just so you know)"?

I'm old enough to remember when this was the prevailing perception of TWs and they enjoyed a fair amount of goodwill, particularly with women (then, as now, it was women's job to look after society's outliers, and I'm not even going to complain about that, because it's the right thing to do).

One of the things that's eroded that goodwill is the (internet driven?) change in the language used. Once the hand-wavy word salad appeared ("really a woman", "it depends", "essences", "nuance"), there was an equal and opposite reaction in the rest of us, causing us to start thinking and saying some literally true things which we had previously politely left unthunk and unsaid. And then the sledgehammer of the thought police came down on us.

And that is why OP is wondering what to tell her DS, and you, young and internet-steeped, think we are a lot of gnarly old haters. Our language has been corrupted.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2024 10:39

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 02:43

I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex. I don't spent my days worrying about the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

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Ad Council Pride GIF by Love Has No Labels

to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance

😂

And that's genderwang, folks! Of course, more enlightened beings are able to appreciate sex as a shifting, mesmerising kaleidoscope of ... shoes, hairstyles and hats. So nuance! Much fluid!

IcakethereforeIam · 20/02/2024 10:58

And pronouns 😃

PoliteTurtle · 20/02/2024 11:04

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 02:43

I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex. I don't spent my days worrying about the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

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OP didn’t I say it would get heated? 😂🤭

No you’re not a woman, you have no idea what being a woman is. What you believe it might be is an idea, just as what I believe a man to be is an idea because I could never actually be a man?
I hate the “I am a woman” , no you’re a trans-woman. Very different and an important difference.

Helleofabore · 20/02/2024 11:21

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2024 10:39

to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance

😂

And that's genderwang, folks! Of course, more enlightened beings are able to appreciate sex as a shifting, mesmerising kaleidoscope of ... shoes, hairstyles and hats. So nuance! Much fluid!

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Great GIF!

Helleofabore · 20/02/2024 11:24

Remember wims....'existence' and 'authentic' has been redefined along with the words 'woman', 'female', 'girl', 'tolerant', 'kind' & 'live your truth'.

Helleofabore · 20/02/2024 11:32

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 02:43

I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex. I don't spent my days worrying about the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

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Your male driven concept of what a 'woman' is, I think you mean.

Yes... we are fully aware that you would still be your 'male concept of what a woman is', if you had never sought any treatment at all.

"the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me."

I am sure that readers can see the misogyny behind such a statement.

There is absolutely no doubt that only ever male entitlement motivates a male person to believe that they can simply state they are a woman and voila.... that is all it takes.

It is remarkable that any person can think that this is appropriate behaviour.

YouJustDoYou · 20/02/2024 11:37

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 02:43

I don't have to prove I, or any other trans person, has changed sex. I don't spent my days worrying about the metaphysical implications of the hormonal and surgical changes I have made to my body; they are real and tangible enough for me and they alter the behaviour of others through their perception of me.

I'm a woman. I'd still be a woman if I had never sought surgical and hormonal treatment. I'd still be a woman if I was nothing more than a few scraps of neurological tissue.

As for whether I am medically female? That depends on who is asking and what specific part of my body is relevant at the time. I view with great suspicion any person who tries to reduce reality to a string of lazy ontological essences with no room for nuance.

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I think prostate cancer begs to differ. You believe what you want. Reality is otherwise.

ButterflyHatched · 20/02/2024 12:24

YouJustDoYou · 20/02/2024 11:37

I think prostate cancer begs to differ. You believe what you want. Reality is otherwise.

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Which I am at a significantly reduced risk of, having never been exposed to male androgen levels as an adult.

Unlike breast cancer which I have an increased risk of due to lifelong HRT.

Reality is complicated. Warring over this reductive essentialist definitional bullshit actively obstructs the truth.

PurpleSparkledPixie · 20/02/2024 12:39

Thank you OP for starting this thread, there have been some interesting responses. I would especially like to thank @akkakk for their posts. You've put my many jumbled thoughts into clear words