Why is the parkrun decision wrong?

[Getonnow]

It feels all wrong to me, but I've had lots of men tell me they thinks it's the right decision and the only thing they could do in the circumstances.

I think it's a cop out and they haven't dealt with the actual issue and also that they've lied about the real reason for the change, but I'm having trouble articulating it beyond that. Help me?

@FlirtsWithRhinos

I'm not sure I understand your catagory thing but as far as I do... there's no way on earth that the transwomen would stay out of the female catagory. They aren't going to stop if we politely hand over "woman", they would be straight onto to trying to occupy "female" as well. This is evident in the discourse around these issues already. The point is to push boundaries.

yes why do you think this ? I’m not particularly athletic but why should my daughters who are, accept the negative outcome- you are implying they are LESS important than a transwoman
@BiggerBoat1

I watched sky news reporting on this earlier. They went and interviewed park runners and couldn’t find any who thought there was an issue. Everyone they interviewed said it’s just a fun get together and should be inclusive. The reporter said “a right wing think tank has been raising concerns”. Seemed odd that they were reporting it as a really divisive issue, but couldn’t find anyone actually involved with park run who thought there was a problem.

Inclusive of men. Wherever they want to be.

They went and interviewed park runners and couldn’t find any who thought there was an issue.

How do we know they couldn't find any runners who thought there was an issue? We only know the opinions of those they selected and who agreed to be filmed.

And which ones made the editor's cut. Manufactured consent.

I haven't spoken to a single runner who thinks this decision is anything but grade A horseshit.

Yes I know. But as long as this is set up as a zero sum game with one prize (womanhood), TRAs are able to gain support by claiming trans women are victims of prejudice about who can be a "woman".

We are stuck playing a game that they set up and it puts us on the back foot. All the arguments focus on who is a woman, why do women have/need women-only support, how much is reasonable for female people give up to accomodate / respect trans women, and so on, when they should point out that regardless of what trans women do or do not feel, and whether or not that thing should be considered "womanhood" or not, female people still exist and to be female in the body is something different to whatever it is that trans (and self-identfied cis-) women experience in the mind.

So we need to change the game. Stop accepting the zero sum framing that works so well for them. Instead offer a model that acknowledges both sex and gender, and it becomes far harder for TRAs to demand trans women be accomodated into single sex provissons and still look reasonable.

Understand, I'm not suggesting any of this because I think the TRAs will stop trying to erase all boundaries between female people and trans identifying males. I'm suggesting it because I think it will make it much harder for them to get political and social support for that zero sum position if there's an obvious and reasonable alternative.

I haven't spoken to a single runner who thinks this decision is anything but grade A horseshit
That's not representative of all though, it's representative of who you have spoken to.
Others feel differently.
I think it's good in a way if they're not actually publishing results anymore and just sending them to you personally like someone said upthread (I've not been to parkrun for ages but do go)
That way they're sticking to the fact it's an all inclusive, fun event for everyone.
Seems whatever they do they're screwed as there's always going to be someone moaning.

..or they couldn't find anyone who was prepared to speak on camera about women's rights as everyone knows the punishment for this by now.

They are still publishing results. With names and "gender" and age categories. Just not "records", fastest times. And they have removed the ability to search for parkrunners by name in the results.

Tell me again how this is about being "inclusive" and not about preventing women's rights activists gathering data on transwomen taking women's places and records.

whatever they do they're screwed as there's always going to be someone moaning.

But isn't it funny who, when they moan, get Park Run jumping to their tune, and who gets groaned at for being a pain and moaning and just needs to shut up, suck it up, it's just a bit of fun?

Yet again, TQ political people have successfully fucked things up for everyone, and made something that many enjoyed less enjoyable because they wanted to be allowed to harm women and this to be ok. And they don't care, because managing to consider anyone else's interests or equality at any time never happens. Never appears. It's like there's no capacity for it.

People are noticing. And this is more people now who have directly experienced that when the TQ+ politics get involved, they get unfairly treated and things get worse for them. The TQ+ lobby don't appear to have the capacity either to realise there's a time limit on how long they can treat everyone like this before everyone loses patience.

Yes she knows

it was a reply to the person who thought that the reporters were unable to find anyone who disagreed

as you rightly say its who you speak to (and who is afraid to speak as they will be called a bigot….or how you ask the question)

I do wish that all organisations would refer to the guidance published in September 2021 by the Sporting Bodies of England, Scotland and Wales and that these bodies would remind sporting organisations of their obligations under that guidance. Parkrun, Football, Hockey and whatever other sporting organisations who have not yet reflected this guidance in their communications do not have to make this up on their own, the guidance is abundantly clear:

1. All of the Sports Councils are committed to the inclusion of transgender people in sport and physical activity.
2. In keeping with the findings of this review, the goals of acceptance, social inclusion and physical activity may be best achieved outside of the sex binary in grassroots and domestic sport. The introduction of new and different models within sport offers an alternative option to meet the needs of people across all the strands of the Equality Act.
3. Categorisation within the sex binary is and remains the most useful and functional division relative to sporting performance.
4. This categorisation acknowledges the broad ranging and significant performance differences between the sexes. Hence, sports should retain sex categorisation, along with age and disability (and weight as appropriate) categories.
5. Evidence indicates it is fair and safe for transgender people to be included within the male category in most sports.
6. Competitive fairness cannot be reconciled with self-identification into the female category in gender- affected sport.

** https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf

(If I can find this guidance, it is not beyond the capabilities of their organisations and all of the reporters commenting on this, to find it too!)

You’re selectively quoting that article. It talks about blood testing, therapeutic use exemptions for medications, etc. People aren’t going to be doing those things for park run. Using asthma medication? Sorry, no park run for you. Not realistic for an activity like park run, and not what you want, since participation regardless of medical issues is prioritised over competition in park run.

I don't think the Sporting Bodies guidance could make it any more clear that the Parkrun decision is wrong and unfair to women.

I'll repeat the main points in case anyone missed them:

1. Categorisation within the sex binary is and remains the most useful and functional division relative to sporting performance.
2. This categorisation acknowledges the broad ranging and significant performance differences between the sexes. Hence, sports should retain sex categorisation, along with age and disability (and weight as appropriate) categories.
3. Evidence indicates it is fair and safe for transgender people to be included within the male category in most sports.
4. Competitive fairness cannot be reconciled with self-identification into the female category in gender- affected sport.

They have made it crystal clear that in sport the sex binary is more important than gender. Anything else is unfair to females.

The issue isn't that Parkrun don't know what's fair to women. The Policy Exchange report called them out directly so there can be no doubt that they are aware of the impact on their decision on women and girls.

They know exactly what would be fair but have instead chosen to argue that Parkrun isn't sport and their famous barcodes are merely decorative as they would rather tie themselves in knots and risk losing their funding than tell the truth that biological sex matters in running.

But even some women posting here aren't really interested in what's fair for women if it inconveniences some men. So you can see where parkrun are having the issue - women aren't a priority, even for a surprising number of women.

Yes pixie, I can imagine many women runners would not agree to be filmed giving their true feelings. It could very well mean they will no longer be comfortable at that park run or they may be ostracised.

It really is not that fucking hard to understand why women don’t. However, I suspect that if a poster (not you Pixie) can dismiss violent acts against women that disagree with their point of view, or attempt to reduce those acts down to a comedy routine, then dismissing the negative ramifications of speaking on camera about negative feelings of male athletes being treated as female athletes is not surprising.

But longines, it is the “Policy Exchange”! You know. Right wing! It means that some pure thinking people can ignore anything said because it wasn’t published or researched by the right kind of people.

Do you also think then that a person who wishes to be considered younger or older than they are would get more benefit than the slight disappointment that someone in the correct age group so that is ok?

Do you also apply this for ability vs disability?

Are you that comfortable that someone who has a need to be considered as fitting into a category they materially are not eligible to participate in should be accommodated? Or just males who hold the belief they are female?

You understand sex categories exist for the protection of fairness and safety for women? Just as other categories such as age and disability?

And do you understand that women are not therapeutic devices for the use of males with specific needs?

@Helleofabore, I also noticed on rewatching that we don't hear the question the people are asked. I doubt it was 'Are women entitled to fair sport?'

Good pick up pixie.

I ran in a parkrun on Saturday and got the usual email with my age and sex ranking.

You can still go to the website and see everyone’s results, filter by age/sex categories and click on anyone’s name and see their past and current results, so not that much has changed.

I like comparing my results and find it motivating. But, I have no idea if the women who came ahead of me are actually men who registered as women or not. So despite all the uproar, nothing has really changed. Until parkrun exclude men from IDing as women it will still be unfair to women.

We will have to disagree.. it is crystal clear to me that the principles quoted from the report are the salient points and should be applied.

What do mass participation races do?

I've entered quire a few and most do now have a 3rd category, but I've never been asked to prove my sex (or my age) despite small amounts of prize money involved.