Why is the parkrun decision wrong?

[Getonnow]

It feels all wrong to me, but I've had lots of men tell me they thinks it's the right decision and the only thing they could do in the circumstances.

I think it's a cop out and they haven't dealt with the actual issue and also that they've lied about the real reason for the change, but I'm having trouble articulating it beyond that. Help me?

I think that's true but when those people moaning are cheats (e.g.males who say they're female) then their moans should be ignored.

Rufus: spot on. Thank you.

To answer GetOnNow's question;

So historically at conventional running races, if a cheat was suspected, other competitors or martials would flag it with the race director and it would be investigated.

(Let's not beat around the bush - this is cheating. Pure and simple)

This is so much easier to investigate to a conclusion than, say, shortcut taking on non-chipped races. Is that a whopping great bloke? Yes. Move them into the male rankings. They are free to participate - just not to cheat. Their delusion/dignity does not trump others dignity and right to fake competition.

Cheats can get in the bin. Full-stop. If that makes me an Ultra, so be it. I'm Ultra for fairness for me, my daughter and all women, specifically the old fashioned ones.

If there are categories, then they have clear guidelines. If someone rejects those guidelines, meaning they cannot respect those guidelines, and they enter when they are not eligible, then if that is discovered all records of that participation is removed from the ineligible category and moved to the appropriate category. Or they are disqualified completely and all records removed.

It is not that hard to be honest.

And I suspect that if the guidelines are clear, people who know that a person is in the wrong category will soon let the organisers know. And if any person wants to then try to use the 'but we are all volunteers and this is onerous and people shouldn't expect us to do this', then tell that to the people who will not respect the categories that have been set up. Don't fucking tell women and girls who simply want to have a fair category to participate in. If the guidelines are clear, the issue is then with the male who registers as a female NOT the female participants who complain.

Difficulties in enforcement- until a few years ago we had male and female categories and that worked fine, there was a cultural understanding of what was acceptable. Time to reinforce what is culturally acceptable and this should not be men and TW racing in women’s races. We don’t say that it is difficult to enforce against exam cheats so let’s not bother.

The other reason that interviewing people at Parkrun gives a biased sample set is because obviously the people who don't agree will either have boycotted Parkrun, or they have set their feelings on this issue aside for the benefits they gain from participating.

The former obviously won't be there to be interviewed, and the latter are hardly likely to jeopardise their ability to participate by criticising Parkrun publicly, especially given they've already made a difficult decision to compromise their principles to continue to participate.

But longines, it is the “Policy Exchange”! You know. Right wing! It means that some pure thinking people can ignore anything said because it wasn’t published or researched by the right kind of people.

Very true.

However, even in the evil Policy Exchange report, one of the interviewees reported that Parkrun was already considering doing exactly what they've just done to wriggle out of the problem they'd created by making all categories mixed sex. Which indicates they were already aware of the unfairness and the disadvantage they were causing to women and girls before the report too.

No it's not the Olympics, it's worse than that. It's an organisation that's given millions of public funds to help increase women's participation in sport and it's cheating in that goal by allowing men to be recorded as women while putting actual women off participation. If they want to include men in the women's category fine but fund it yourself and be honest 🤷‍♀️

If they want to include men in the women's category fine but fund it yourself and be honest

GI believers and adherents are not even passing acquaintances with the concept of honesty.

I think that's true but when those people moaning are cheats (e.g.males who say they're female) then their moans should be ignored

No, because people who are trans have every right to be there, park run have repeatedly said that everyone can run and is included.
If you don't like that, find a competitive race instead of a local fun event.

GI believers and adherents are not even passing acquaintances with the concept of honesty.

This.

And women are campaigning to have male people not be included only in the female category. No woman is campaigning for any 'transgender' athlete to not be able to run at all. It would be a falsity to say that women are campaigning to remove the rights of any transgender athlete to participate in the category for their sex. Except female athletes on testosterone should not be included in the female category either.

Can you clarify please, do you falafels believe that male people should be able to compete in a female sports category when the female sports category has been set up to give female athletes fairness and safety?

Or do you believe that a male athlete taking testosterone suppression drugs reverse all the advantages that puberty has given them?

Why do men have the right to cheat but women don't have the right to fair play?

If it's a non competitive fun run why is finishing position, including age and sex grading, recorded and given to participants?

Why do men have the right to cheat but women don't have the right to fair play?
Trans women aren't cheating though as they have every right to run in the women's category at park run.
It's not a competition and park run is OK with it.
Where do you stand on trans men if they had to run in the female category? Just curious as if they were on testosterone they'd surely have an advantage over women?
That wouldn't be fair either then but nobody ever seems to mention that?

That's another reason why Women and Open makes sense, I suppose, Falafel.

Trans women aren't cheating though as they have every right to run in the women's category at park run.
Are you morally bankrupt? Or do you genuinely believe men have no sporting advantage over women? Presumably a thirty year old running in the 70-79 category is not cheating either? If categories are meaningless, why have them?

I'll repeat this question as it hasn't been answered:
If it's a non competitive fun run why is finishing position, including age and sex grading, recorded and given to participants?

Where do you stand on trans men if they had to run in the female category?
If they were taking testosterone then yes it would be unfair, which is why there should be a women and open category as Scribbling says.

Yes. Men taking women's records are cheating. It's quite intentional cheating. It feels great for the man involved, and it fucks over every woman who ran.

And yet, in the post asking:

Can you clarify please, do you falafels believe that male people should be able to compete in a female sports category when the female sports category has been set up to give female athletes fairness and safety?

Or do you believe that a male athlete taking testosterone suppression drugs reverse all the advantages that puberty has given them?

I said: Except female athletes on testosterone should not be included in the female category either.

So, you are rather incorrect in saying 'nobody' ever seems to mention that.

Just because regulations say a person 'can' do something, if they understand that it is cheating, should they still do it? Releasing times make this 'a competition' despite some very weak attempts to dismiss this by Parkrun. Not releasing standings at all and not recording any records would be a start to proving this is 'not a competition'. Otherwise, it is a falsity.

And please answer the questions asked above. I have bolded them so you don't miss them.

Jesus bloody Christ, I just don’t know where to start with this, so I’m going to walk the dog and rant to myself. Are you trans biggerboat?

I said: Except female athletes on testosterone should not be included in the female category either
So, you are rather incorrect in saying 'nobody' ever seems to mention that

Apologies, missed where you said that.
Bit hypocritical then, no?
I mean if they're women after all like you say then surely they should be in the women's category.
Women in the women's category, men in the mens.
That's your usual stance.

Do you really believe this? Why does one persons feelings trump another?
I feel like a school pupil so can I go back to school and join in the classes and take all my GCSES, and if lots of us adults, who already have degrees and masters, do that and push up the pass rate of GCSEs would that be fair, after all if I feel young then despite my biological age giving me an advantage here, it's fair, right?
What about if I feel like I want to be an accountant having done a book keeping course? Would you be okay with that? after all what are exams if not a social construct? Generally speaking the higher your academic attainment the greater social mobility, so perhaps as a society we can all feel like we've got expertise and skills and then offer our services as various professionals? Counselling is unregulated, anyone can set themselves up as a counsellor, so perhaps that's the way forward for all areas of work....what could possibly go wrong?
What about if I wanted to become a member of the royal household? Would that be okay if I buy all the gear, the diamonds, the bags the makeup, now I feel like a royal can I be a royal and have the privileges that affords me?
Or what if I'm fed up of working and want to give up my mortgage and ask the council for a house, because I feel that's the way for me to feel better and less stressed? Or would that be wrong because I'm taking something away from someone who's in a less fortunate position than myself? But my feelings matter right?
Why is okay to impersonate someone sometimes and illegal at others? Actors spend their life impersonating others, so if they carry on the charade after working hours is that okay? Going back to my accountancy analogy, providing I'm not working as an accountant is it okay to say I am one because I feel like I am? Are there anytimes when it's justifiable to claim to be something you are not because of feelings? Is deception ever okay? If I don't feel like going to work would that be okay? Would it be illegal to claim sick pay because I feel like I'm ill, even though there is nothing physically or mentally wrong with me, I'm just sick of working or would I be up before a disciplinary hearing for taking something I'm not entitled to take? Would it be seen as fraudulent gain?
So I ask you, a male with biological male advanage, feels like a female and can enter a female race, and that's okay because it's just for fun? Now supposed there is a £10k prize in the female race and a male who feels like a female enters and wins, is that okay or is that a deception? Because biologically no matter what hormones and surgeries that male person has had, the male physiology will still be an advantage over female physiology.
If someone feels disabled, even though it's a purely functional illness (so very real to them), would it be okay for them to compete in the disability sporting category, despite still having the advantages on an abled body person?
Psychologically speaking most people who feel they are 'in the wrong body' have a psychological illness, so at what point do we continue to collude in their illness? At what point do feelings takeover from reality? How does it feel to be a man or woman or an asthmatic if you don't have asthma? I don't know how it feels to be anyone else, so I can't say I feel like X Y or Z? I do feel old, my joints ache, I have arthritis, my hearing and eyesight are rapidly declining, maybe I'll feel more old in a few years time and wonder why I felt old in my 40s compared to my 60s? But if I feel old now, why can't I claim my pension and retire? have a free bus pass, or take part in the over 60s free swimming session our local leisure centre offers? Or enter the over 70s race our local running club does each year, and claim the winning £100? Or do you think I might be called out for such behaviour, after all by your argument why should my feelings and biological advantage trump someone in their 70s? It would give me a real boost to win that race, as I've no chance in winning the 50s and under category.
Supposing there are two competitions one for neurotypical and one for neurodivergent. Now supposing being NT gives you the edge in the ND competition and vice versa.
If a NT person feels ND would it be okay for them to enter the ND category?
Supposing a NT person could take a tablet that makes them ND would it now be okay to enter the category? Or do you think having lived most of their life as NT might just give them the edge?
As a ND person in a NT world I'd love nothing more to have a normal functioning brain, I would have done much better at school, I'd have had much better job prospects, I'd be much more productive at home, but I also wouldn't be me. I can no more change my biological, neurological or psychological make up, as much as I'd like too, than a leopard can change its spots. There is a reason why, in general terms, most self help books are only helpful in the short term...
It's fine to listen to your feelings and emotions and by all means find ways of making life happier, if that's wearing frocks or smocks then go for it, but we shouldn't allow feelings to disadvantage or cause harm to others, that way madness lies, I want to be treated by a qualified doctor not someone feeling like a doctor!

Can you clarify please, do you falafelsbelieve that male people should be able to compete in a female sports category when the female sports category has been set up to give female athletes fairness and safety?
We're on about park run. Have you ever even been to one? All the men and women run together so not sure what you're meaning by safety?
Unless you mean women are automatically unsafe just from being next to men?
As if so we're not going to get anywhere and are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I think it is rather remarkable that a woman would declare letting a male win to make them feel better is completely wonderful and fair and that the women and girls who are disappointed are just 'slightly' disappointed and so that doesn't matter.

My head exploded with the dissonance in this post. I am glad I was not alone.

It is proof that women and girls are mere fucking therapeutic tools for men's feelings. As a runner, that sentiment can fucking get in the bin. If I ran in Parkrun (I looked to join now my fitness is back up to scratch but this policy deterred me), I would just walk away once I realised a male athlete beat me and Parkrun allowed that.

But... oh.... it is ok. Female athletes of any age can just leave, they don't count at all. How many of us leaving, or in my case not even joining, will it take for Parkrun to realise that including male athletes in the female category is NOT inclusive at all. It drives female athletes to exclude themselves.

So .... you are not going to answer the questions then?

How surprising... not.

And no. No hypocrisy from me. I have always been clear that a female athlete who takes a performance enhancing drug should not be in a female sports category. Because strangely enough Falafels, they derive a benefit from testosterone ... you know... the hormone that drives the physical advantages that male athletes have over female athletes.

You and a few others seem to be taking this absolutist approach that would mean a female taking testosterone should be included in a female category. It ain't a gotcha, and it just makes you look uninformed. Which doesn't surprise me either.

I am saying no males and no females on performance enhancing drugs. Gosh... seems I align with World Athletics and other sports federations on this. Gosh... and you don't align with World Athletics on this topic? is that what you are trying to say in a round about way?

1000%

My situation is similar.

So you don't even go to park run.
Was obvious.
Which probably explains why you're being hypocritical over complaining that not all your questions are being immediately answered and then glossing over ignoring ? ones asked to you.
Have you ever even been to one? All the men and women run together so not sure what you're meaning by safety?
Unless you mean women are automatically unsafe just from being next to men?
*As if so we're not going to get anywhere and are just going to have to agree to disagree"