Why is the parkrun decision wrong?

[Getonnow]

It feels all wrong to me, but I've had lots of men tell me they thinks it's the right decision and the only thing they could do in the circumstances.

I think it's a cop out and they haven't dealt with the actual issue and also that they've lied about the real reason for the change, but I'm having trouble articulating it beyond that. Help me?

Oh ok - I do understand it now. Still failing to see how anyone can get annoyed about this. Why does it matter who is ahead of you? Allowing trans women to participate in the category that fits their identity might mean you slip down a few places but so what!

For me, it's the fact that they are still recording things inaccurately for women, so the weekly times are still wrong for women, where an individual has placed relative to others in their sex/age category is still wrong for women, and so on.

But men aren't affected by that as their stats are still accurate (as any biological females in the male category won't adversely affect a man's position any more than the same number of additional males in their category would).

So by not publishing as many stats or the course records, they haven't actually resolved the issue that's adversely affecting women and only women - they've simply made it less visible.

The point is that men don’t have to wonder if they were really 5th place compared to others of their sex, or if they were actually 3rd and just got beaten by a couple of men living in fantasy land. If timings and placings matter then they should matter for men and women equally and right now we’re being told that they shouldn’t matter for us.

Allowing trans women to participate in the category that fits their identity might mean you slip down a few places but so what!

Bunbury points to the fact that several female Parkrun records are now held by TW. Seeing other women set and hold records can be inspirational and motivating for other girls and women. (I know this from my preferred sport. It encourages women to take up something that is overwhelmingly male dominated.)

They are meaningful for rankings like these.

https://www.thepowerof10.info/content/itemdisplay.aspx?itemid=1273

Are you saying we should just have a list of times and no reference to gender? cos there's no reason to let the male TW pretend to be females more than any other man. Either they separate by sex or they don't. TW are and always will be male.

Still failing to see how anyone can get annoyed about this. Why does it matter who is ahead of you? Allowing trans women to participate in the category that fits their identity might mean you slip down a few places but so what!

Because I want to compare my performance to what I can realistically achieve, given my age and sex.

These factors make a difference to your time, which is why Parkrun have categories - if an 80 year old woman could expect to run the course at the same speed as a 20 year old man, they wouldn't need categories in the first place, but they have them because an 80 year old woman wants to know how her performance stacks up against other people of a similar age and sex, and not be aiming for the completely unobtainable time of the 20 year old male.

If age and sex make a difference to one's time, they should be recorded accurately. If they don't make any difference, then why even record these factors in the first place?

The more males who register as female in my age category, the more unrealistic and unobtainable the time I'm expecting to achieve for my age/sex category becomes.

In which case why not start letting adults compete in children's sports

Sure the children might stop winning and might slip down a few places but so what!

I think the Trans community have missed an opportunity here. They could have had had an actual competition between themselves, across the country or indeed world. A real sporting competition with others that were the same sex and gender identity of themselves, where they would have to push to win.

But men aren't affected by that as their stats are still accurate (as any biological females in the male category won't adversely affect a man's position any more than the same number of additional males in their category would).

An athletic trans man is likely to be quicker than plenty of less athletically inclined men in the same age group, just not as fast as the fastest men.

I expect most people doing park run really aren’t that bothered.

Is one of the female records still held by the 'woman' who stabbed a UK Athletics race official?

Everyone (men, women and children) are being penalised by a few cheating men (I highly doubt any of them even suffer from gender dysphoria).

It is similar to when they have unisex toilets to get around the single sex toilet issue. Everyone is penalised.

It is another case of people losing their rights due to a small minority.

And perhaps it brings it home to the very vocal minority of men (woke-bros?) who say they support this nonsense. IRL I've yet to meet a man who supports this stuff.

I'm not seeking to change anyone's opinion - just stating my own.

Personally I think the positive effect for a trans woman being able to compete in the category that fits her identity is more significant than the slight disappointment of other women possibly dropping down by a few places.

I'm not saying the trans woman is more important that other women just that the positive for her is greater than the negative for others.

As a woman, I would be happy to accept that my ranking might change. I accept that others might not. Obviously it is difficult to achieve a balance of everyone's needs.

An un-athletic male is likely to be quicker than most athletically inclined females which is why millions of females are rightly pissed off about this.

Why is it that when we talk about trans it’s always about “ inclusion! Kindness! Listening!” and when we talk about women it’s always about “shut up no one cares”?

U R bonkers

That's a revolting attack on women's rights. TW are male. They have male bodies and male privilege and there's no point in women's sports at all if you let males into them. It's not yours to give away. Have some respect.

And yes you are saying that TW are more important.

What a very well thought out and persuasive argument.

I won't bother to explain my point of view any more. I thought people might be interested to hear an alternative opinion even if they didn't agree.

Ah yes that good old opinion that men feeling positive about themselves is far more important than women feeling positively about themselves

And if through the actions of men feeling more positively about themselves women end up feeling more negatively about themselves then that doesn't matter, because men are more important

If only there was a word to describe this....

Well let's be honest: it's a view that men are more important, and it's the duty and responsibility of good women to sacrifice for them.

No, it's not the job of women to sacrifice sporting ambition for the better happiness of special men. And it should not be compulsory and enforced on those women who do not choose to play Patient Griselda.

A 6ft 5inch father of three who has spent 20 years in the Marines needs to run in the women’s competition?

You’ve been had sweetheart.

Are you actually interested in all the posters giving their alternative opinions that you don't agree with?

Wow. I saw this tweet by Victoria Smith yesterday which seems apt -

https://x.com/glosswitch/status/1756419767500455945?s=20

Women as support humans. What a surprise.

(Edited to add that VS is not the author of the article - she is critiquing it).

Yes I am interested or I wouldn't have engaged with this. I don't agree with what the majority are saying, but I do understand where they are coming from.

I haven't called anyone "bonkers" or "sweetheart" because I don't feel the need to do that. I think that demeans everyone on here who is expressing a genuine point of view.

If this is not a space for debate then I will gladly bow out and leave you to just echo the same opinion.

An athletic trans man is likely to be quicker than plenty of less athletically inclined men in the same age group, just not as fast as the fastest men.

But that edge that the athletic transman has over a non-athletic man isn't by virtue of their being biologically female - it's due to their athletic training.

So it wouldn't make a difference to males whether it is a transman or an extra biological male joining his category, as the deciding factor as to who is in front would still be based on training and athletic ability as far as a man's performance is concerned.

If transmen did gain a performance advantage over biological males specifically by being trans (e.g. by taking high levels of testosterone that negates the effects of having biologically female bodies), then of course that would be unfair to men too (and I'm sure we would hear about it pretty quickly).

I'm not saying the trans woman is more important that other women just that the positive for her is greater than the negative for others.

What made you come to that conclusion?