What would you do? Re school staff member and colleague calling himself 'miss'

[Icantpeopleanymore]

So it's a delicate situation...I work with a man who is lovely, very young, known him as both a student and now a colleague, he's not a teacher but has occasional contact with kids, I barely need to refer to him by 'Mr ...' but would have to in front of students, he's 'transitioning', on hormones, up until now on staff nights out etc he would wear dresses etc but I would just ignore it (he has a following of woke girls who are more than ready to compliment him on his outfits and I've just ignored it until now) he did once make reference to HRT when I was having a hot flush and compared it to his hormones, it was in a social gathering and not the right place so I just ignored it and changed the subject. However, he's now changed his email to Miss.. surname and I just cannot bring myself to do it. To me, it's actually teaching our students to lie and it's also plainly obvious he's a man, albeit a slightly built long haired one who wears trousers and jumpers to work so fairly gender neutral clothing too.

It just leaves a horrible taste in my mouth and it goes against everything I believe but I also don't want to hurt his feelings or be rude, he's a decent human being, but it's just not on at the same time. It'll only come up once or twice a term at most but others I know who also think it's a load of bollocks and deal with him daily are just going along with it, because he's a nice person and a friend, we've all known him years. They just don't want to be rude. I appreciate he's being brave to make this change of name but he's just so misguided...

It makes me so angry he's put us in this position but I cannot call him miss, it's just ridiculous! Plus I can imagine our students going...who?! As he's clearly a bloody man! Oh and is a scientist 🤦

How do you deal with it when it's at work, you want to be kind and not appear rude, but can't just use a first name? (It's a gender neutral first name thank god, just a shortening of a man's name that could be a woman's) but I can't do that in front of students...

@Nttttt Out of curiosity, why should someone call a man 'miss'? It is a term used for a girl or an unmarried woman. This person is not a girl or a woman so why the application of the word is not correct.

As a colleague you can't leave them twisting in the wind like that with a difficult response by a pupil. It may not happen, but if it does you just deal with it - as an experienced teacher you know better than to let something like that lie? Wouldn't you just say 'their name is now Miss X' - a factual response to shut it down?

I'm not Muslim but if a colleague converted and I needed to use a new name for them I would manage that.

Well, it's not all about you! It is not your decision to make, so you will just have to suck it up!

It's OPs decision what words she chooses to use surely?

OPs choice to get sacked for transphobia in the workplace then 👍🏼😂

@Nttttt sorry, I can't even make sense of any of that. No one is trying to kick him out. Wasn't even mentioned.

I'm just trying to find a kind way to stick to my principles, which are that he is a man, he will never ever be a woman, and encouraging kids to lie about what is clearly in front of them is wrong. Plus don't get me started of the implications to our male students that if they are a boy who isn't a 'proper man's man' that they must be a girl. I preferred it when he was just a very sensitive man who didn't confirm to gender stereotypes. That's braver I think.

Plus, if he has the right to tell me what I must say when speaking about him, then surely I have the right to say what I think? Which is that it makes me uncomfortable. I do not want to do it. Simple as that.

I'll just avoid it as much as possible and hope it doesn't come up.

@Nttttt Is this what it has come to? We must make ourselves feel uncomfortable and be forced to bow to others wishes otherwise we will lose our jobs? Isn't that coercion?

@Nttttt

Why are transpeople's feelings paramount over everyone else's ? Would you make an atheist say they believed in God just to appease a believer?

It's not my decision to use the words I want to use?! Who knew?!

Proper 1984 shit going on here!

And if you think they're going to sack teachers then you've not been near a school recently, heard of the retention crisis?!

Plus there's case law regarding women unlawfully sacked for recognising biological reality. Transphobic? Pull.your head out of your arse. This dude is a man and I would be seriously unimpressed if the school started lying to and gaslighting my child regarding this.

@PermanentTemporary that's a good point. I do actually like him! I would support my colleague whatever, you have to.

Yes, maybe state that factually I guess would be the best thing in that situation.

With the converting to islam scenario,vyes, I would, but it's possible to convert to Islam. It's not possible to become the opposite sex.

If we want to use religious analogies then here is one;

Imagine being a Christian and this offended someone at your work who was an atheist and they went on a rant saying your religion makes them uncomfortable……. It’s just not ok.

A man living in the sky is far more insane than someone feeling they are a different gender, but I have friends who are religious I respect and I will always support them.

their name is now Miss X' - a factual response to shut it down?

It is disingenuous to suggest using "Miss" is not implying that he is (somehow) a woman. This is a highly contentious position to take. Apart from anything else, teachers are required to remain politically impartial in front of the children.

They were more about gender critical beliefs than misgendering, and the Forstater judgement did mention that it wasn’t free reign to Mia gender people.

I suppose it’s like you’e allowed to believe gay marriage is a sin and shouldn’t be allowed etc but that doesn’t mean you can tell your colleague in a same sex marriage that they’re not really married.

Its a weigh up for the OP really between what is easier - referring to his person as “miss” when needed and her own feelings about that, or to continue calling him “mr” and potentially having consequences to that.

Imagine being a Christian and this offended someone at your work who was an atheist

I would be this offended - nay outraged - if they demanded that I, and the children, pray with them. My Christian colleagues do not do this, of course.

@Nttttt That comparison is not the same because the work colleague who is religious is not asking the atheist to compromise his own beliefs, therefore the persons religion has no bearing on the other person.

Now if the religious person was forcing the atheist to take part in their religion or make them pray, then that would be encroaching on the atheists rights.

Bottom line, you can't force someone to acknowledge you're a woman when you are in fact, a man.

Gender and sex are different things hun. The persons gender expression should be accepted. I totally agree that she won’t be buying tampons or using women’s health services but this persons gender identity is that of a woman.

You lot are honestly like the homophobes in the 80s and notice how their ignorance got left behind?

Also notice how children and young people are so much more tolerable. You are living in the past and desperately need to join the acceptance. It feels a lot better to not be getting so upset and aggravated by other people’s decisions.

As I said I understand people being critical of trans people using spaces they’re not comfortable with (toilets etc) it’s not my personal beliefs but I respect that some are uncomfortable with this.

I’m actually going to I watch this post now because I just get in such disbelief the stuff you bunch say.

Do you think that’ll happen?

Several recent employment tribunals have vindicated women who have been victims of harrassment/discrimination and unfair dismissal from their employers on the basis of their gender critical views. Their belief that biological sex is real and often important, and that it cannot be changed is considered worthy of respect and they have the right to say it so their employers were wrong to deem them transphobic, and to treat them unfairly as a result.

@Nttttt ok so I am actually a religious person and it would in fact go against principles of my religion to call a man a 'woman'. So who's rights win?

@Nttttt I am an atheist. I work with two people in my department who are very religious, different religions and both have very fundamental beliefs. They would not make me say that dinosaurs never existed or refer to god in daily conversations with the students, or make me pray, or sing hymns.

I wouldn't have to use it in every day conversation and we each respect each others beliefs as they don't even come into our daily interactions. So it's not the same, sorry.

His appearance, his dressing up in women's clothes when we have staff socials, even his reference to the menopause being like what he is going through with hormones, none of this affects my work. I don't have to lie, I just ignore it. He doesn't use the ladies toilet, he uses the accessible one, all fine. Up to him, doesn't affect me.

Me referring to him as miss when he is clearly a man and having to do that in front of students, that affects me. Because he's asking me to lie.

What stuff? The truth? That a man isn't a woman and asking others to use wrong pronouns is asking them to join in with the untruth.
Because let's face it, it's not going to stop with pronouns. He's already considering the hormone treatments to be the same thing. Next it'll be accessnto the women's loos, supervising the girls on residential trips not the boys etc etc.
This is where be kind gets you. It's never just the pronouns.

Sex and gender are indeed not the same thing, one is biological reality, the other is not.

What do you think the school would do if you refuse to call him “miss”? I mean that’s what it comes down to basically, and presumably the only thing stopping you.

ACAS are good at employment advice, although this may be too specialist for them. Are you in a union? If not join one asap, as you usually have to already be a member for them to help.

I think teachers are just going to have to have the prefix ‘Teacher’ that acts the same way as ‘Dr’ or ‘Nurse’. So ‘Mr Jones’ becomes ‘Teacher Jones’. I know this person is only an assistant so maybe you could say ‘Assistant Smith’ or ‘Teaching Assistant Smith’. It’s ridiculous, yes but it takes away any chance of ‘validation’ for someone who wants to be seen by a bunch of 5 year olds as the opposite sex to the one they were born.

And kids could get used to getting a teacher’s attention by saying ‘Teacher’ rather than Miss or Sir. Miss is usually used whether a teacher is Miss or Mrs anyway so it’s always been a nonsense.

If my child came back saying they were asked to call a male teacher ‘Miss’ I’d explain the situation in an age-appropriate way and tell them to call them Teacher instead. And don’t be worried if you say Miss - you won’t get into trouble.

Good for you. Hope you're comfortable. And willing to learn, but I'm assuming not.

Tolerant or made to feel like they can't disagree? Because I work with young people every day and I can tell you that many of them feel as I do but they're too scared to disagree.

Oh, and I'm not homophobic. I actually think the trans ideology is completely opposite to the the rights of gay people. It overshadows it and actually makes a mockery of gay rights. My daughter is gay and I bloody support her every day to be who she is and love who she wants to. Unfortunately she's been taught that because she's a girl who doesn't conform to 'feminine' stereotypes, she must be trans. Which is bullshit.

I like this person, I'm willing to refer to him as them if I have to, I will ignore the clothing, the references he makes constantly to his transition, all of that, because I wouldn't want to make him uncomfortable and none of that affects me. But I'm drawing the line somewhere and I'm trying to find a sensitive way around lying to my students and saying something I don't feel comfortable saying.