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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What would you do? Re school staff member and colleague calling himself 'miss'

161 replies

Icantpeopleanymore · 04/02/2024 20:59

So it's a delicate situation...I work with a man who is lovely, very young, known him as both a student and now a colleague, he's not a teacher but has occasional contact with kids, I barely need to refer to him by 'Mr ...' but would have to in front of students, he's 'transitioning', on hormones, up until now on staff nights out etc he would wear dresses etc but I would just ignore it (he has a following of woke girls who are more than ready to compliment him on his outfits and I've just ignored it until now) he did once make reference to HRT when I was having a hot flush and compared it to his hormones, it was in a social gathering and not the right place so I just ignored it and changed the subject. However, he's now changed his email to Miss.. surname and I just cannot bring myself to do it. To me, it's actually teaching our students to lie and it's also plainly obvious he's a man, albeit a slightly built long haired one who wears trousers and jumpers to work so fairly gender neutral clothing too.

It just leaves a horrible taste in my mouth and it goes against everything I believe but I also don't want to hurt his feelings or be rude, he's a decent human being, but it's just not on at the same time. It'll only come up once or twice a term at most but others I know who also think it's a load of bollocks and deal with him daily are just going along with it, because he's a nice person and a friend, we've all known him years. They just don't want to be rude. I appreciate he's being brave to make this change of name but he's just so misguided...

It makes me so angry he's put us in this position but I cannot call him miss, it's just ridiculous! Plus I can imagine our students going...who?! As he's clearly a bloody man! Oh and is a scientist 🤦

How do you deal with it when it's at work, you want to be kind and not appear rude, but can't just use a first name? (It's a gender neutral first name thank god, just a shortening of a man's name that could be a woman's) but I can't do that in front of students...

OP posts:
nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 16:53

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 16:35

People cannot change sex. That is not a belief. It is fact.

Legally they can and the government specifically protects people doing so via the equality act and gender recognition act.

Firstly, the Equality Act doesn't say people can change sex. Because they can't.

Secondly, the Equality Act prevents people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment from being discriminated against in the provision of goods and services. Meaning, they cannot be treated less well than a person without the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, for no reason. The comparator for a TW is a man, the comparator for a TM is a woman.

The Equality Act does not mean that a person with the PC of gender reassignment can do whatever they like, or force other people to do what they want them to. They are protected against unlawful discrimination, they are not given carte blanche to try to force other people to do what they want them to. Other people have rights too.

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:01

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 16:53

Firstly, the Equality Act doesn't say people can change sex. Because they can't.

Secondly, the Equality Act prevents people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment from being discriminated against in the provision of goods and services. Meaning, they cannot be treated less well than a person without the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, for no reason. The comparator for a TW is a man, the comparator for a TM is a woman.

The Equality Act does not mean that a person with the PC of gender reassignment can do whatever they like, or force other people to do what they want them to. They are protected against unlawful discrimination, they are not given carte blanche to try to force other people to do what they want them to. Other people have rights too.

At work, persistently refusing to use their name and persistently misgendering them is likely to be gender reassignment harassment under the equality act.

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 17:19

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:01

At work, persistently refusing to use their name and persistently misgendering them is likely to be gender reassignment harassment under the equality act.

At work, trying to force a person with the protected characteristic of belief to use the wrong sex pronouns or wrong sex honorific is likely to be harassment on the grounds of belief under the Equality Act.

See how it works? Equality. No hierarchy. A transperson's wants don't trump any else's wants. Sorry Stonewall lied to you about the law.

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:27

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 17:19

At work, trying to force a person with the protected characteristic of belief to use the wrong sex pronouns or wrong sex honorific is likely to be harassment on the grounds of belief under the Equality Act.

See how it works? Equality. No hierarchy. A transperson's wants don't trump any else's wants. Sorry Stonewall lied to you about the law.

That’s unlikely. There isn’t carte blanche to express beliefs at work.

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 17:31

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:27

That’s unlikely. There isn’t carte blanche to express beliefs at work.

That's the point. Neither of those putative people have carte blanche to express their beliefs at work. That's the point.

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:36

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 17:31

That's the point. Neither of those putative people have carte blanche to express their beliefs at work. That's the point.

The trans person just existing isn’t expressing beliefs.

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 17:40

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:36

The trans person just existing isn’t expressing beliefs.

Sigh.

Noone is trying to prevent them from existing. But they do not have the right to force others to believe what they believe. They do not have the right to compell others' speech. Equality.

literalviolence · 11/02/2024 17:46

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:36

The trans person just existing isn’t expressing beliefs.

No one's debating their existence. But asking to be called opposite sex pronouns clearly is expressing a belief. And it's one many people feel is damaging to women. Who are oppressed.

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:57

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 17:40

Sigh.

Noone is trying to prevent them from existing. But they do not have the right to force others to believe what they believe. They do not have the right to compell others' speech. Equality.

Someone expecting their name and pronouns to be respected at work isn’t forcing anyone to believe anything. Refusing to respect people’s name and pronouns is likely to be harassment. If someone wants to go to court to test that out they can, but they’re likely to lose.

nothingcomestonothing · 11/02/2024 18:12

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 11/02/2024 17:57

Someone expecting their name and pronouns to be respected at work isn’t forcing anyone to believe anything. Refusing to respect people’s name and pronouns is likely to be harassment. If someone wants to go to court to test that out they can, but they’re likely to lose.

Yes it is forcing people to declare they believe that males can be women and vice versa. And we are not required to believe that. Not believing that is protected by law.

Declining to use wrong sex honorifics or pronouns is no different than declining to say mashallah when talking about something that's in the past. I can say it, I can't require you to say it.

It probably will come to court at some point.

Redpencil99 · 11/02/2024 22:31

We have recently changed to a new data management system. Whereas before there was no function for pronouns, now this new system has a space by employee name for "pronouns". Not even. "preferred pronouns". Already we have one member of staff who has "they/she" in the email footer.

It's going to come to a head, and all employers have ducked their head right down, and kowtowed to GI when pushed, requiring everyone else to either be passive bystanders or risk their jobs if their boss takes exception to protest.

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