Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

[CaptainWarbeck]

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

I don't know if JT has been subtly clever or totally suckered in this instance. But if you'd asked me before DH went on the circuit to sell his books, I'd have said I couldn't be much more GC than I already was. I'd also have said that I personally wouldn't bat an eyelid about either of the transwomen of my acquaintance peeing in the next cubicle in a mixed sex toilet, just as I'd be happy to have any of the ordinary blokes I know peeing in the next cubicle of a mixed sex toilet. But with the fetishistic aspect of adult male transition being brought to the fore, even in a sanitised version, I'm now thinking, "No, I don't want YOU to overhear me tinkling in the loo. In fact, I don't want you in my airspace at all now that I can't escape the knowledge that I'm unintentionally feeding your fetish." If the intention was to normalise AGP, it's had the opposite effect on me. It's pushed me to a new peak.

If they'd befriended Tinsel or other transwidows, or someone like Lynne Pinches, or developed feelings of warmth towards the women removed from sporting competitions, I wonder if the present landscape might be different?

Empathy bias is strong and can skew perspectives and decisions.

Fowler, Z., Law, K. F., & Gaesser, B. (2021). Against Empathy Bias: The Moral Value of Equitable Empathy. Psychological Science, 32(5), 766-779. https://doi.org/10.1177/0956797620979965

It's why Nolan principles of public life mandate consideration for others who are not in the room. Yogyakarta Principles were formed without consideration of those who were not invited nor considered.

You clearly don't read her columns iin the Times. I do. It has been very evident for quite some times she is wanting, very much, to vote Labour.

The Times as a whole has been banging the drum for Labour for a long time; besides it has a variety of writers and contributors - like any good publication should, and does.

That aside, can you explain why she is so keen to use pronouns when they are neither demanded nor required?

Well. Bleurgh.

After Helen Joyce's "fuck off" to women who object to others voluntarily using wrong-sex pronouns, I lost a lot of respect for her. Same now for Janice Turner after the article and her tweets. If this was the only article of hers that I'd read, I'd think she was a useful idiot.

Your enemy's enemy is your friend - but not in this case. My enemy's enemy is also my enemy, just for different reasons.

ArabellaScott
Describing women who stay in marriages/relationships with AGP men as feisty rather than passive victims reminds me of the manipulation used to persuade girls/women into doing things they are not comfortable with during sex, or into more and more extreme pornography. "Most girls don't have the guts." "I thought you could handle it." "Aren't you woman enough." Etc, etc.

TinselAngel
This sort of article must be both infuriating and abusive for you and women like you. My deepest sympathy goes out to you as does my admiration for your determination and courage. Have a hug.

It has been very evident for quite some times she is wanting, very much, to vote Labour.
I've seen Janice state a couple of times that she's a Labour Party member.

Re-reading this blogpost, which discusses why some high status women want to allow TIMs into 'sisterhood', made me think of how the discussion has been going on Twitter this weekend and with Turner, Freeman, Stock et al generally:

'There is always danger in sacralising any given class of people, but these trans allies do not see the danger or do not care. They have a mission and a purpose. They believe that women centring our needs in a world that hurts and uses us, asserting our boundaries and the relevance of being born and raised a girl in a sexist world are simply motivated by hate. They don’t understand that the hate they perceive is the one they have for themselves. I do not blame them. As a woman, as a former girl, I know this self-hatred far too well…

Women know this hate so well that it has inserted itself in the fabric of our being. Many of us have internalised it and with it they have internalised the male system of values whereby men are the only true humans – and as true human beings, the idea that they could possibly be treated with the same condescension and disrespect as women, even when they claim to be us, is simply unacceptable.'

<a class="break-all" href="//web.archive.org/web/20220805065934/virginiasroom.co.uk/2022/01/falling-from-humanity/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220805065934/virginiasroom.co.uk/2022/01/falling-from-humanity/

And it remains an issue of consent.

It is all very well those women consenting. But they cannot consent on behalf of other women.

Some women are going to be excluded from any woman's space that those women make mixed sex, regardless of their 'lovely trans friend'. This is not ok. This is spitting on the women who are the least privileged, in order to pander to men.

I am not ok with any women being disenfranchised and excluded from society so that men can use women's spaces if they want to. Even the women who aren't my friends and aren't in my social group. Even the women I don't like. Zero tolerance on this. Women cannot be sacrificed to men. End of.

That.

It is not clever clever feministing.

It's shafting women for good girl cookies from men.

Here’s a brief moment of levity from the lovely mr menno

https://twitter.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1754559729794273433/

Thanks for the link 😂

Menno really gets the issue.

'While celebrated AGPs go by “as many names and faces as it takes to get what they want… women must choose whether to have a name and a face at all”
https://x.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1754436415209766961?s=20

and

'These men give our sex class such a bad name. It should be men calling them out if anything and pulling them back in our lane. He can bring his marigolds 🤷‍♂️

As for his ‘Journey Back To Reality’ - Hayton is still living the Debbie Fantasy. He’s not returned from it at all, just consolidated it in a way that makes it easy for others to swallow. And they do.'
https://x.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1754460971555303733?s=20

Menno is quoting my friend Jenny.

Describing women who stay in marriages/relationships with AGP men as feisty rather than passive victims reminds me of the manipulation used to persuade girls/women into doing things they are not comfortable with during sex, or into more and more extreme pornography. "Most girls don't have the guts." "I thought you could handle it." "Aren't you woman enough." Etc, etc.

100% that is exactly correct.

The Times is a Tory paper and JT is GC. This is blowing my mind.

What are the suitable GC news sources then?

Menno has just done a marigolds skit

x.com/mrmennotweets/status/1754559729794273433?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

It's on point

Hehehehe. Perfect! If only he had a breast pump in the background for a nice cross reference.

@Snowypeaks ArabellaScott
Describing women who stay in marriages/relationships with AGP men as feisty rather than passive victims reminds me of the manipulation used to persuade girls/women into doing things they are not comfortable with during sex, or into more and more extreme pornography. "Most girls don't have the guts." "I thought you could handle it." "Aren't you woman enough." Etc, etc.

I just wanted to say thank you for this post. Something has really been niggling the back of my brain about the victims of this, you are correct. It is manipulative, controlling abusive and just plain wrong anyone that cannot see this needs to stop and really rethink their priorities.

I'm not sure how you 'passively' leave and 'victim'ishly decline to put up with someone's abuse of you.

I'd have thought that making an active decision to leave a relationship, is the reverse of being "passive" but what do I know?

I managed to miss that somehow, thanks for the clarification 👍

"Blowing your mind"! Rather hyperbolic I'd say.

I gave up my Guardian subscription around 2017 - and started reading the Times because it was one of the very few mainstream publications to be airing content that was critical of Gender ideology and Self ID. Janice Turner played a central role in that. Many of us here wanted to encourage further coverage and so took out subscriptions.

i've been reading both the paper and the digital copies daily since then. In all of that time the paper's editorial line has been relenetless in its negativity towards the Tory party; towards Boris Johnson, and now towards the current administration. As even an ex Labour party member it began to annoy me - it seemed so relentless. The cartoons have been vicious.

But yes, its reputation is of being centre right, but not always rigidly so.

I'm really not sure what your point is - if you have one?

You responded to my post about Janice Turner wanting to vote Labour with a kind of forced incredulity. Do you read The Times, yourself - and of so have you been reading Janice Turner's columns ( not just the GC ones, but the others too)?

No I don't read the times, i get most of my news on here or BBC. All the Times readers I know are Tories, I thought it was a paper for centre right voters which is why I was surprised you said it was Labour.
I tend to think Guardian is left, Mirror is left, Independent centre left, Times centre right, Sun centre right, Telegraph, Express and Daily Mail right.

May have to revisit if we are now saying the Times is for Labour voters.

No, that is not what I'm saying, though plenty of Labour/Left leaning people ( including many here), and even party members quite clearly read it.

You need to broaden your news horizons I'd suggest. Some of the most interesting writers now write for the Times, the Telegraph and other traditional 'right leaning' publications. You must have been aware - perhaps not - that a good few were expelled from The Guardian for wrong think.

'Wrong think' is the outcome of narrow tribal affinities and formulating your views based on second hand opinion; on stereotypes, and on ignorance.

I agree about the importance of reading a plurality of new sources although there are lots on this board who won’t read the guardian because of how they’ve treated women so I sympathise with those that feel inclined to give more Tory-leaning papers a serve!

Read everything! Read The Sun, read Reuters, read the BBC, Al Jazeera, the Mirror, local papers, and yes, even the Guardian, although it makes me roll my eyes. I even read Pink News.