Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

[CaptainWarbeck]

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

the people most likely to give you the facts of this are transwidows.

It's got to be bloody galling that they are the last people to be consulted.

Yes it is.

I can't understand how this person is a teacher - I would not want my children to be involved in any adult's sex life in any way or to be giving a man a sexual thrill by having to call him 'Miss' - how is this acceptable in society?

Well, it's not but we (the general public) have been well groomed for years.

The one thing I do know is that DH will be enjoying all this attention.

it’s annoying - we can’t even say “eeeewww” without fuellling a tingle in a cock. Humiliation fetish is a thing I cannot get my head around. I know the best thing to do is to ignore these creepy fuckers, but I also know that fetishistic behaviour escalates and intervening means I become wank fodder. They can all fuck off.

Teachers tend to read the Guardian and the TES.

I remember when I was still rather green to things like agp, buying the TES with DH's article in it. And being 'grateful' as it was the first time I'd seen anyone raising a few issues around the harm to children. Specifically because he mentions the transgender trend guide as being the most sensible and mentions single sex sports and spaces for girls.

Though, when I read the whole article I was it doubt about a few aspects and rather perplexed as to how to think about it, but couldn't put my finger on it.

Just pulled it out; 10th May 2019.

"Supporting transgender students: what you need to know."

Reading through now I can see exactly what the issues are. There's a few things thrown in for "us" and the rest is still affirmation and a very muddled interpretation of law.

He's heavily in to pronouns in it. And boys wearing girls' clothes including swim suits.

It's the conclusion that particularly got to me at the time. Now I know it's because the whole thing was written as if safeguarding children but in reality is a safeguarding nightmare.

What I don't understand is why Janice Turner decided to use pronouns when Debbie does not expect them, and when Debbie is very clear that he is a man? It does seem very gratuitous.

Perhaps she is trying to show that she is 'reasonable' and is capable of holding to a Labour Party 'middle way' position?

The section in the DSM does talk about female partners of AGP men. Quite surprising to see it all written out quite clearly. It talks about the dynamics, although I suppose it falls short of describing how this is often part of an abusive/coercive dynamic.

I'd also pulled out a page from the times and stuck it in the tes, by Andrew Gilligan, about the two children who were transitioned in foster care very quickly. 12th May 2019.

I feel quite sick reflecting on how much the wool was pulled over my eyes, appeasing me with mentions of TT and girls' sports whilst actually, it's all TRA "business as usual," which is a direct quote from the tes article.

I think this was a subtle hatchett job by JT.

Letting DH hoist himself on his own petard so to speak.

Just put the facts and his quotes out there and let readers draw their own conclusions.

I think that would be better than an editorial slating of him, or just ignoring him.

* The section in the DSM does talk about female partners of AGP men*
Sorry what's the DSM?

I posted it upthread, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, used as reference for mental health :

'Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders'

https://archive.org/details/diagnosticstatis0005unse/page/702/mode/2up

Right. And now you know, at the time of writing that, DH knew he had AGP, and since then has admitted that he would have given up his wife and his entire family in order to satisfy it.

Stephanie says:

"That this was, well first of all, it was that she wasn't going to transition even though she really should do, and then it became actually she had to transition, and that she was going to transition whether I agreed with it or not, whether I wanted it or not. And that if necessary that she would walk away, leave us all, as long as she could transition."

It would appear that what she says on Twitter doesn't really back that up.

Sorry I was too depressed by the whole thing to read the middle of the thread.

He's not being hoist on his own petard. He's being enabled to normalise his fetish and continue to coercively control his wife.

Am I missing something? What's an article by JT in the Times got to do with Labour? I thought the Times was centre Right and Janice was well known for being GC?

That's what I think too. By using preferred pronouns and being respectful, there can be no accusations of transphobia and the fetish clearly shows for what it is

Sorry, Tinsel. This must all be really hard. I hope you're okay.

It seems DSM 5 has been updated, but I can't access it.

https://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787.x19_Paraphilic_Disorders

This is the description of the chapter that contains AGP:

'Paraphilic disorders included in this manual are voyeuristic disorder (spying on others in private activities), exhibitionistic disorder (exposing the genitals), frotteuristic disorder (touching or rubbing against a nonconsenting person), sexual masochism disorder (undergoing humiliation, bondage, or suffering), sexual sadism disorder (inflicting humiliation, bondage, or suffering), pedophilic disorder (sexual focus on children), fetishistic disorder (using nonliving objects or having a highly specific focus on nongenital body parts), and transvestic disorder (engaging in sexually arousing cross-dressing). These disorders have traditionally been selected for specific listing and assignment of explicit diagnostic criteria in DSM for two main reasons: they are relatively common, in relation to other paraphilic disorders, and some of them entail actions for their satisfaction that, because of their noxiousness or potential harm to others, are classed as criminal offenses. The eight listed disorders do not exhaust the list of possible paraphilic disorders. Many dozens of distinct paraphilias have been identified and named, and almost any of them could, by virtue of its negative consequences for the individual or for others, rise to the level of a paraphilic disorder.'

I would have supported the idea it was a subtle hatchet job till I saw her tweets

A subtle hatchet job would have been keeping schtum and letting the discussion and criticism spread like wildfire

@Elspyth I can't remember where I've seen it but i believe she's been championing Labour a fair bit

Gender dysphoria is a separate chapter.

'In this chapter, there is one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria, with separate developmentally appropriate criteria sets for children and for adolescents and adults. The area of sex and gender is highly controversial and has led to a proliferation of terms whose meanings vary over time and within and between disciplines. An additional source of confusion is that in English “sex” connotes both male/female and sexuality. This chapter employs constructs and terms as they are widely used by clinicians from various disciplines with specialization in treating gender dysphoria(Bouman et al. 2017; Hembree et al. 2017). In this chapter, sex and sexual refer to the biological indicators of male and female (understood in the context of reproductive capacity), such as in sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, and nonambiguous internal and external genitalia. Disorders of sex development or differences of sex development (DSDs) included the historical terms hermaphroditism and pseudohermaphroditism. DSDs include somatic intersex conditions such as congenital development of ambiguous genitalia (e.g., clitoromegaly, micropenis), congenital disjunction of internal and external sex anatomy (e.g., complete androgen insensitivity syndrome), incomplete development of sex anatomy (e.g., gonadal agenesis), sex chromosome anomalies (e.g., Turner syndrome; Klinefelter syndrome), or disorders of gonadal development (e.g., ovotestes)(Lee et al. 2016).'

https://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787.x14_Gender_Dysophoria

Note the involvement of Bouman.

That's Walter Pierre Bouman. Of the NHS, and of WPATH. He is past president of WPATH and was involved in the Standards of Care 8 with the Eunuch chapter.

https://www.wpath.org/soc8/chapters

Yet, her tweets framing women who reject using pronouns and have articulated excellent reasons for that rejecting of using pronouns have led me, and many others it seems, to believe otherwise. Calling women 'ultra GC' for rejecting pronouns is not respectful, in my opinion.

I'm quite surprised that Janice let herself be drawn into those Tweets. I normally find her far more measured than that and, as other posters have said, she didn't have to say anything at all never mind lash out in the way she did.

My guess is that she (and probably other GC journalists) must have known Debbie Hayton for quite a long time and that what started off as a working relationship has become a friendship, hence the defensiveness and testiness. That's total speculation but something, it seems to me, has touched a nerve.

Oh and Debbie Hayton is very clever.

No, you’re correct, it’s not.

I feel Hayton is being disingenuous here by stating he can’t discuss the teaching Union policy; his case study and input was involved in creating that policy. I presume the Head Teacher at his school consulted him too when the change in presentation started at work. So Hayton benefits from both these self-ID based policies being strictly in favour of pronouns, presentation, and using women’s sex-segregated spaces, despite saying him now saying he no longer agrees with them. Instead of writing a memoir, why not put all that effort into a campaign to change these policies?🤔🤷‍♀️