Using sex-based pronouns instead of their preferred gender-ID pronouns

[DuesToTheDirt]

Has anyone ever done this? What happened?

I mean for people you know in real life, not on the internet, and for adults not children.

I would love to do this, though I don't suppose I will. But I feel that by saying "she" to refer transwomen I am being forced into a lie, that I am agreeing to someone's delusion. I try to avoid using pronouns, but realistically that just results in either not talking about certain people (which is definitely one strategy!) or using really convoluted language. It's all very well being "kind" to people, but it's certainly not kind on me.

Christ have you read your message even

First of all, not everyone screaming about pronouns are trans. Let's just start with that. People who are offended on behalf of trans people or speaking up aggressively are not necessarily trans. They just aren't.

Second of all people who do are often subject to death threats as well and as you can even in this thread not a welcome voice.

Theryn who testified on behalf of Jordan Peterson ended up being attacked by people on for being transphobic. Then, when she has addressed incidents of actual transphobia people called her a man, sent death threats, rape threats, and bullied her to the point she quit social media. She was not allowed to be pro woman's rights and free speech as well as discuss transphobia.

Not everyone is capable of being Blair White who has been an endless supporter of women's rights but who none the less even here is called a man and has her appearance mocked.

Third of all, fear sells. Covid, war, making people afraid is a media goal. Evil Transwomen trying to hurt women is a popular topic. Those instances will be more publicized than sweet moments of trans people living their regular lives. Not much of a story to interview me and my partner.

Finally, considering that some people on here don't believe trans is a thing. They don't believe it exists. They would not be welcome to the discussion because according to many being trans is the same as saying men can enter women's spaces. Being trans is seen as an attack on women simply by existing.

Considering that where do you think there voices would be welcome? Where would you like them to speak up? Who would listen?

I've stated many times that my trans partner and myself agree with most of you on many topics but him being trans is all it takes for my voice to be dismissed let alone his.

What would you like Transwomen and transmen say that would make this better? What could they say that you would want to hear? Would you respect them enough to listen or dismiss them simply for being trans?

Yes. Do you even know what point you’re trying to make?

That is a despicable remark. Firstly, they are doing nothing wrong, unless you consider sticking up for women's rights to be wrong. Secondly, is there any situation, ever, where death threats are rape threats are acceptable? (Rape threats of course, being particularly misogynistic - do men ever get rape threats?)

First of all, not everyone screaming about pronouns are trans. Let's just start with that. People who are offended on behalf of trans people or speaking up aggressively are not necessarily trans. They just aren't.

But again, the “lots of trans people” who aren’t bothered by pronouns according to you stay silent and don’t tell these people who claim to represent them to stop. Why is that?

Theryn who testified on behalf of Jordan Peterson ended up being attacked by people on for being transphobic.

You’re right, this is one reason why, being shunned by one’s own community. But is that all? Why can pro-women’s rights people increasingly have the confidence to stand up to pronoun bullying despite death threats and abuse but “lots of trans people” can’t? I think it’s because “lots of trans people” actually agree with this enforcement and want it to happen so have no interest in stopping it or claiming pronouns don’t matter.

Third of all, fear sells. Covid, war, making people afraid is a media goal. Evil Transwomen trying to hurt women is a popular topic.

Making people afraid? Like the child who was abducted and sexually assaulted by Amy George? It’s the media’s fault she was afraid?

Finally, considering that some people on here don't believe trans is a thing. They don't believe it exists. They would not be welcome to the discussion because according to many being trans is the same as saying men can enter women's spaces. Being trans is seen as an attack on women simply by existing.

Being trans is the same as saying men can enter women’s spaces? No. Saying men are women (or trans) means you’re saying men can enter women’s spaces.

Considering that where do you think there voices would be welcome? Where would you like them to speak up? Who would listen?

You’re basically acknowledging the trans activist community is bullying, not accepting of different view points and not welcoming. That’s where you should be talking about pronouns not mattering but again, it can’t happen. Because the bullies dominate.

I've stated many times that my trans partner and myself agree with most of you on many topics but him being trans is all it takes for my voice to be dismissed let alone his.

Your partner being trans has nothing to do with your voice being dismissed, because your voice hasn’t been dismissed. It’s still here. What has been called into question is your logic that pronouns aren’t a big deal when we have rapists and paedophiles being called “she”.

What would you like Transwomen and transmen say that would make this better? What could they say that you would want to hear? Would you respect them enough to listen or dismiss them simply for being trans?

Cessation of bullying people for “misgendering”.

Cessation of police visits to people for the same for “non-crime hate incidents”.

Cessation of employment difficult for same.

A clear stance from trans organisations that harassing people for “misgendering” is not acceptable.

A clear stance from politicians and police that it is not a “hate crime” or NCHI.

Apologise to all the people who have been harassed, bullied, fired, subjected to legal proceedings or police intimidation, etc.

Get Gina Carano back in The Mandalorian.

As a starter. I look forward to this and Hell freezing over.

You want Trans people to apologize for the behavior of some? Why? Are they responsible for all trans people? Lol

Are trans people owed apologies by you for the violence and rapes and murders they've endured? For the bullying they've experienced? For the homeless kids who have been exiled from their families? You understand trans people continue to be harmed still as well right? Are you going to apologize for the death and rape threats towards Blair and Theryn?

I'd like white people to apologize for all the violence and racism my family and others have endured. Does that sound reasonable?

You want trans people to get an actress back on a show? You think this is reasonable?

As for the rest you have a trans person who publicly and vocally agrees with the above called Blair White, who has been mocked on this board despite agreeing with you.

So you are agreeing the risk of suicide if not affirmed thing is a myth? No one is dying because they are not treated as the opposite sex so we can stop all stop being pressurised to lie about their sex?

You asked what trans people could do. They could organise and form a movement that opposes the extremist view that is representative of them. They could disavow themselves of this and condemn the events we’ve seen. But strangely, there is very little of it. You can’t ask “what do you want trans people to say” then complain when there’s an idea given about some of the things they could say.

Of course they’re not responsible for death threats, they should always be condemned, but if trans people don’t oppose the extremist view on pronouns one has to assume they’re for it.

All of the examples I gave on what trans people could say are all related to pronouns and the concept of misgendering. Police visits for example. But somehow you think “pronouns don’t matter.” Why do people get police visits for “misgendering” then?

Blair White has not been mocked, it has just been pointed out that Blair White is male and appears that way to many.

I would love to see evidence of this. This entire thread is about sex based pronouns.

Transwomen are being referred to as men. My trans partner is usually referred to on here as a woman.

I'd love for @mumset to respond to this accusation.

I suspect a lot of bans would happen if this were actually true.

Do people not organizing and speaking against the rape and murder of trans people mean they agree with it? That's also a terrifying thought. I would never assume that though.

Do women on here respect and support Blair White speaking up? Is she someone women on here would like to hear more from? I'm genuinely asking. Is Blair White someone women here feel comfortable listening to?

As far as I know only one trans person has been murdered in the UK in the last 12 months and yes, many posters on FWR did express sadness and sympathy. They may not support the ideology but they can separate that from the people.

You keep bringing it back to rape and murder. Why don’t you start with expanding on your claim that “lots of trans people” don’t mind sex-based pronouns. Where were these people when women were getting police visits for misgendering?

I never said they don't mind sex based pronouns.

Trans people of course want to be referred to by their preferred gender.

Trans people on the whole are not screaming and yelling and calling the cops on people who don't do that. The pronoun issue is overblown by everyone.

Not reacting in an extreme manner does not mean they don't care how you refer to them.

Josette

I find it unbelievably offensive that trans women - who are male - can apropriate female terminology to label something they feel about themselves that I have no doubt is genuinely felt but is also nothing whatsoever to do with the things those female words originally meant. In doing so, those trans women are taking words away from female people, preventing us from using them - the words that previously named and described us - to talk about the experience and reality of being female, and I don't understand why anyone would think that is ok.

Can you understand how offensive, how presumptuous, how dismissive this is?

I'm sorry that this contradicts the way someone you love thinks, but this really matters. We - female people - exist, and we need words that mean us and only us to describe and understand that existence.

I will ask again, given that the inner thing trans (and self-identifying cis) people call their gender is clearly a different concept to sex, why is it so important to appropriate the pre-existing terminology of sex to describe it?

Why can't we have he and she, man and woman, for sex, and invent new words like je and che, masc and femme (and as many more varieties as we need) for gender? Then I, who is a woman only because of my body, can be she and woman, and you, who presumably consider yourself a cis woman, can be che and femme for preference but still able to use she and woman when needed, and trans women can be che and femme for preference, expressing their shared identity with you, but also he and man when necessary?

Trans people on the whole are not screaming and yelling and calling the cops on people who don't do that. The pronoun issue is overblown by everyone.

But it’s not everyone. It’s that group of trans people who DO scream and yell and call the cops on people for misgendering. Everyone else would happily get on with their lives but it’s a bit hard to do if you risk a police visit or employment issues. How can you say that it’s “overblown” when these are the consequences? We are going round in circles. It’s been pointed out to you the very significant real life consequences people have suffered just as a result of pronouns and “misgendering” and you’re still saying it’s overblown.

I think what you mean when you say “lots of trans people” don’t get involved in the pronoun debate is that lots of trans people and their supporters couldn’t care less that this sort of Stasi approach (in the words of the judge in the Harry Miller case) is happening to other people and I think they think they deserve it.

Honestly? I love your ideas. I would be on board with that 100%.

You think they did something to deserve being hounded out of their job / receive rape/death threats / have their lesbian-only dating event shut down?

Reported, anyway.

You are correct we are going around in circles and I am not trying to be antagonist.

I know very real situations have happened because some people are utter assholes. It's not ok. It's absurd. The entitlement is appalling.

I don't think anyone should behave that way.

I also don't think it's ok to treat someone being trans as a reason to deliberately offend. If you don't want to refer to someone's preferred pronouns I don't think it needs to be a big production if you disagree. You they or their name. No big deal. Making mistakes happen but there's easier ways for everyone to win if both sides use some grace.

I know very well no one will like they because it still requires an adjustment in language but to me it seems like a compromise.

I like the above suggestion of new gender words. I really love that actually.

Josette77, with the greatest respect, you are not comparing like with like when you say that non-trans people should consider apologising for murders and rapes of trans people and white people should apologise for racism against non-white people, as if it were the same as trans people distancing themselves from the enforcement of pronouns based on gender identity.

Murder, rape and race discrimination are all illegal - nobody in their right mind would condone such crimes. But there are some extreme trans rights advocates who would like to see harsh penalties for ‘transphobia’, in the form of new hate crime legislation (Labour party proposal) or employer policies that can get you sacked if you ‘misgender’. And there is a reasonable moral case one can make for using sex-based pronouns. You simply can’t make that for murder!

As for the claim that people on this board don’t believe in the existence of trans people. On some level, I’m afraid you are right, I personally don’t believe in the existence of womanly, manly or nonbinary essences that exist independently of a human body. Makes no sense to me. It does seem to be a belief that some people hold very strongly, and I try to be respectful, but I’m just not a believer myself, and say so without rancour or malice.

@Holeinamole

I don't take that with malice at all. I'm not sure what my own beliefs are exactly. I linger in different places at times.

That's why I always say Transwomen are Transwomen. Transmen are transmen. I'm comfortable with that, and I try my best to be respectful.

I started very left wing, then became extremely GC, somehow fell in love with a transman in the middle of it all, and now see a bit more from both sides to a degree.

I hope (although I know most here will likely not agree I have) that I've learned from all angles.

I still read things here that make me pause, or think, or question something I believe. I'm definitely still learning myself.

I don't have the answers, if anything I have more questions. I do find some responses on here to be quiet reassuring in some ways. I think these conversations are they only way forward. Moreso because we disagree.

I know very real situations have happened because some people are utter assholes. It's not ok. It's absurd. The entitlement is appalling.

So it’s not an overblown situation I think we can agree.

You they or their name. No big deal. Making mistakes happen but there's easier ways for everyone to win if both sides use some grace.

But it is a big deal! It’s asking people to compromise their language! It makes the English language unworkable, particularly using they in a singular form. You’re asking the English speaking world to compromise the entire history of the English language and an entire personal lifetime of speaking the language in order to “show some grace” towards a tiny minority of people who would call the police on you if they felt so inclined.

It’s a step backwards while the aggressive side steps forwards. It’s not a compromise at all.

You don't have to change language though. You can use their name or they. We don't often use people's pronouns to their face anyway?

I like the idea of those who disagree just not calling them anything, and those who are fine with it do.

I respect that you think that is damaging and requires too much compromise.

I hope the divide is less wide one day. I'm not sure I'm contributing here in a useful way or one that even seems reasonable unfortunately. Lol

I do hope things improve for all one day. I'll step away for now. I don't want either of us to feel like we're banging our heads against a wall.

It was lovely hearing yours thoughts though. You definitely made me think hard about my views so thank you!

You don't have to change language though. You can use their name or they. We don't often use people's pronouns to their face anyway?

To ask me to refer to a single person who I know and whose sex I know as “they” is asking me to change my language. We don’t use people’s 3rd person pronouns to their face usually, but we are being asked/demanded that we use them when the person isn’t even present. You know this.

I like the idea of those who disagree just not calling them anything

But it’s not “anything”. It’s the truth. It’s calling a male a male. It’s not like people like me want to pluck something out of the ether.

There will always be a divide as long as there are people hell bent on forcing people to lie.

@Josette77 "Are trans people owed apologies by you for the violence and rapes and murders they've endured?"

I think it is worth mentioning that it is the male sex class dishing out the vast majority of violence and threats to women and men of all possible identities. So, Josette, I would simply answer, no. The women of mumsnet do not owe apologies for rapes and other kinds of male violence.