Using sex-based pronouns instead of their preferred gender-ID pronouns

[DuesToTheDirt]

Has anyone ever done this? What happened?

I mean for people you know in real life, not on the internet, and for adults not children.

I would love to do this, though I don't suppose I will. But I feel that by saying "she" to refer transwomen I am being forced into a lie, that I am agreeing to someone's delusion. I try to avoid using pronouns, but realistically that just results in either not talking about certain people (which is definitely one strategy!) or using really convoluted language. It's all very well being "kind" to people, but it's certainly not kind on me.

My partner takes testosterone. He's medically transitioned. He identifies male and presents male.

The difference is the butch lesbians I know are women who identify as women.

More importantly they don't want to be called sir. My boyfriend does.

Should he tell people he is trans so those who disagree can "correctly" call him a woman? Because based on this thread it's confusing using pronouns for people who don't pass.Which means it would be very hard to call Dave who looks like a man a woman.

You can always tell. Sorry but you just can.

Lol No you can't. I'm not going to post a pic of my partner but no, he's a large bearded man.

So it’s a “mistake” if the person being observed or talked about wants it to be a mistake but it’s not a “mistake” if the person being observed or talked about doesn’t want it to be a mistake?

How is the person doing the observing and talking about someone supposed to know what the person being observed and talked about wants?

And yes, you can tell, especially when trans men talk because testosterone changes the voice with a very unique characteristic that’s easy to pick once you learn about it.

No need for a photo. But you really can tell especially if you are gender critical.

All the best to you both though.

I would have no clue. You obviously pay more attention to people then I do. If these transmen approached me I wouldn't know unless the were buck naked.

Funny enough I dated an actor who is often mistaken as trans. He's not.

There’s no doubt some trans men pass better, especially when photoshopped. But that isn’t the point.

You’re saying the only way I can know whether I’m making a mistake or not if I perceive a human as female is by knowing their inner machinations. How can that work in real life?

And yes the voice is true. I can hear it in some transmen but not always. I don't hear it in my partner but I can pick it up in others sometimes.

I never dated a trans person before. Our first date I remember trying to see the female in him. I didn't have any transmen friends. Maybe someone else could pick him out of a lineup as female but I sure couldn't.

You can't. Which I think is why if someone says actually I use such and such pronouns I think you use them.

Using pronouns DOES NOT mean Transwomen should be in women's sports, or women's jail. That is a separate and important issue.

I just think the pronoun issue is so pointless.
I don't care what someone wants me to call them, I care about women in sports being sidelined.

Focusing on pronouns is a waste of time to me. You can call my partner my girlfriend, she, a woman. Whatever. That's not going to change the big issues. I don't know why people think this all boils down to pronouns. Biology is biology.

I'll call Lia Thompson she but she shouldn't be competing because she's a biological man who has no business being there. She's a Transwoman not a woman.

Well Buck Angel is often buck naked!

Seriously you can tell especially in person. Humans pick up signals and can tell from physical tells.

You obviously pay more attention than me. If any of those men approached me looking like that the only thing I would pick up on is they are hot men.

I thought Blair White was a woman when I started watching her too. I thought she was very outspoken about trans issues and it wasn't until she said she was trans that I had a clue.

Lol I didn't know who Buck Angel was! Well that makes sense. Oops lol

He was a really beautiful woman too.

A really interesting person too

I'm intrigued. I'm going to read about him.
Thanks for telling me his name!

But this post is a contradiction. By failing to refer to Lia Thomas as a man and “he” you are contributing to the failure to convince the casual observer that he should not be in women’s sport. A casual observer of the issue, hears people talking about this person called Lia who everyone calls “she” and can’t understand why there would be any fuss about “her” being in women’s swimming competitions. You could constantly qualify all of your statements about Thomas to point out his sex, but it could still fail to convince people if you’re hedging your language. Many people don’t actually know that a transwoman is male.

So the pronoun issue is not pointless. It allows clear unequivocal language to demonstrate exactly what the issue is in sports, prisons etc. A man wants to swim in the women’s competition and he has beaten women and is unrepentant. Amy George is a man. He abducted and sexually assaulted a child. By dismissing it as pointless because of your own personal conflict of interest you’re willing to obfuscate language when discussing the real issue presented in these examples.

I won’t do that and I don’t think these issues are separate and a “waste of time”.

You said upthread he wasn’t a man.

Now he’s a man?

Seriously? You thought Blair was a woman?

OK!

He's a transman.

But yes to people who don't know he looks like a large muscular bearded man. He looks like a man. He's clocked as a man.

NRFT but

They in singular is grammatically fine. It's my preferred option a lot of the time when not sure and wanting to keep head firmly below parapet...

I assume of someone didn't know she was trans and didn't understand they would probably ask?

And in circumstances you list her being a Transwoman is the issue. Why not just say Transwomen?

Look, I get it. I clearly have personal experience with a trans person I love.

If people honestly believe the pronoun issue is the crux of changing the things that in my opinion are critical then carry on. I sincerely hope things change. I don't think it's the right approach personally and I fail to see it changing things.

I think there is a way to respect trans people and advocate for women's rights. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm not though. I hope both are possible.

I did! Honestly this was years ago before her facial feminization. I think she looked far more feminine before plastic surgery. Just my opinion obviously. In her videos though people she interacts with on the street often think she's a woman so I'm not the only one!

What a bloody mess. All this is purely because the gender ideologists simultaneously acknowledge sex and gender are different things (as they have to be to allow people to identify as trans in the first place) but absolutely insist sex and gender have to have the same words.

Have separate words for the separate concepts and the whole damn issue goes away.

Insist on using the same words, and that in the event of a clash the genderist usage is the only acceptable one, and you have effectively removed the ability to name and therefore accomodate, sex based needs, experiences, risks and inequality in politics, in culture, in law, in employment, in conversation...

Given this massive and to female people hugely damaging downside, can anyone on the 'respect gender' side explain exactly why, if sex and gender are different, it's so important that we can't have different words (including pronouns) for sex and gender?

Then especially as you've qualified that with Blair from years ago, I'm afraid I shall take your girlfriend looking like a man with a pinch of salt then.

Pronouns aren’t “the crux”: truth is. Pronouns are just one element of how truth is obscured and falsehoods are perpetuated.

I think you’re wrong about changing things. It’s becoming a great deal more widespread to call people the sex they are and there is a great deal more pushback on being forced to lie compared to 4-5 years ago. The knock on effect of this is people feel more emboldened to stand up for women’s rights.

I think there is a way to respect trans people and advocate for women's rights.

I am still waiting for an explanation as to why it’s ok to be disrespectful to me by forcing me to lie in order to be respectful to people who want me to lie about them. Why don’t the rest of us deserve respect?

You are welcome to believe whatever you want. It makes no difference to me. He's happy being trans. I'm happy with him. I'm very lucky.

Neither of us will change our minds, but it's been nice talking with you.