Using sex-based pronouns instead of their preferred gender-ID pronouns

[DuesToTheDirt]

Has anyone ever done this? What happened?

I mean for people you know in real life, not on the internet, and for adults not children.

I would love to do this, though I don't suppose I will. But I feel that by saying "she" to refer transwomen I am being forced into a lie, that I am agreeing to someone's delusion. I try to avoid using pronouns, but realistically that just results in either not talking about certain people (which is definitely one strategy!) or using really convoluted language. It's all very well being "kind" to people, but it's certainly not kind on me.

No. Just no. Children should not be taught that what they see should be withheld. The exact opposite. Sometimes it’s hard for children, but it’s not very common and it’s not hard for the rest of us.

OP, I never use wrong-sex pronouns. The trick is to not care what people think. And if people challenge me they usually get a good education on why it’s compelled speech, sexist, homophobic and damaging.

If he's a transman he would use he/him.

How bigoted of you to assume the pronouns a person wants you to use.

They politely asked me to use their preferred pronouns. This has been the case for a trans woman, a trans man and a couple of people who identify as gender neutral (so ask for the pronoun "they").

It was accidental every time though - these are all people I knew before and after (from university) so I originally knew them as their sex based pronouns! If you don't want to use "she", can you use "they" as a compromise?

I work with a TM & a TW both of whom are obviously a woman and a man respectively . I use either their name or they to refer to them

PLEASE be careful OP. When I was at uni (admittedly, one that has a reputation for being very liberal and extremely left wring). Another student was given a formal warning for not using the ‘correct’ pronouns when referring to a trans classmate. I am not saying this is right, but you can make yourself open to issues (especially if it’s within a liberal environment).
If you are not comfortable with using their preferred pronouns: IE She/her if a biological a male, I would try and use the gender neutral they/them or simply refer to them by name only, that way your not conforming to something you don’t believe with whilst not explicitly going against the persons wishes.

This.

For men in dresses in the public eye I will always use "he".

For cross dressers I see but don't know I use sex-based pronouns, like the man with a beard who wanders round my town in ladies clothes but is clearly unwell/off his head on something.

For men with special identities I encounter, like the male staff member with a she/her pronoun badge at IKEA, I have no reason to use pronouns in their vicinity so it doesn't come up.

I try to remember which of DC’s friends are “they” as the DCs get the hump if I forget, but in other circumstances I just use sex based pronouns because I categorise people by sex not gender.

Eldest adult DS calls most people “they” as he says it’s easier than bothering to remember who likes what, and how recently changed.

Is it not gender based pronouns?

I use he/him for men and she/her for women.

They're welcome to their delusions but I'm not not getting dragged into them.

Not that simple when you are discussing safeguarding issues and someone asks which facilities Debbie should be using.

What happened to the word transvestite?
in my day we’d say oh yeah, he’s a transvestite. Easy.
now my head spins. To me a transwoman would naturally be a woman who wants to dress as a man.
a trans man would be a man who wants to dress as a woman.
it makes my head spin.
when referring to my friend and her partner I get so confused. Does ‘they’ mean they both want to meet up or just the one ‘they’
cant help thinking it’s designed to confuse and reveal you as not in the clique

No, they definitely do not.

Transmen are invariably running from their sexuality - breast-binding or having mastectomies, downplaying their attractiveness, making themselves androgynous.

Whereas transwomen, do the exact opposite. Long hair, pink, dresses, fake breasts, make-up - they’re all embraced - and all apparently make you a ‘woman’, whereas XX chromosomes, and a uterus definitely do not.

It’s incredible that we lump these two groups of people together.

Absolutely mind-boggling.

I don’t think that children should be taught to use ‘they’ for everyone, either. It’s potentially dangerous and it’s also neo-Victorian, creating taboos about something that’s very banal. It also projects the purported problems of a small minority (those who are uncomfortable with their sex) onto the rest of the population when, especially for NB people, we’re actually talking about a political identity, not psychological discomfort. I don’t see why somebody else’s politics should dictate the speech and reality perception of the next generation.

Societies where there are no pronouns are more sexist. If you remove sex based words it makes it harder to describe sexism. And therefore to stop sexism. The sexism occurs regardless of what pronouns you use - which is a concept that the non-binaries haven't grasped. The primary purpose of pronouns is they act as a tool of power over other people and are a form of social control reliant on fear. This alone should be a reason to kick back on them. There is nothing about changing your pronouns which is polite. It is an act of aggression.

Yes. I find this too. It is the assymetry of the situation that always strikes me. I guess it strikes others too which is part of the reaction we are seeing.

Is it normal to expect you to perform olympic-level mental gymnastics for someone who's not even a vague acquaintance? I mean, how would you even know someone felt trans never mind non-binary in most cases let alone remember? It just shows how much it's a power play.

And of course we shouldn't teach children to 'they' everyone for a silly fad that shouldn't really be indulged. Why even think that? Parent your child, don't be a servant animal for random strangers. It's a safeguarding nightmare too and goes against all common sense. It also makes for dreadful customer service if you can't even identify the person you need.

The demand to control how you refer to someone when they CANNOT HEAR has always struck me as one of the most bonkers and narcissistic demands by this bonkers and narcissistic movement.

So no, I don’t go along with it. Avoid pronouns in a trans person’s presence, sex based only behind their back.

And sometimes in professional situations I raise the use of gender based pronouns by other professionals as a safeguarding issue (think staff caring/supporting very vulnerable young people, where staff need to keep the extra vulnerability of a service user being female clearly in mind - my job is to advise on health issues).

There are a couple of nonbinary people at my workplace, I don’t come into contact with them much.
I've noticed that even some of the people with pronouns in their email signatures / zoom IDs regularly use the correct sex-based pronouns for them both though, which to be honest is quite funny. They’re specifying their own pronouns because they’ve been told it’s the right thing to do, but it doesn’t translate into real life.

Result!

RedToothBrush · Today 08:00

• · Today 07:01

I think children now need to be taught to call everyone 'they'. Because sometimes you don't know and it's hard.

Also we learnt he/she and it takes a lot of effort to alter it so if we stick to they for everyone it becomes much easier.*

Societies where there are no pronouns are more sexist. If you remove sex based words it makes it harder to describe sexism. And therefore to stop sexism. The sexism occurs regardless of what pronouns you use - which is a concept that the non-binaries haven't grasped. The primary purpose of pronouns is they act as a tool of power over other people and are a form of social control reliant on fear. This alone should be a reason to kick back on them. There is nothing about changing your pronouns which is polite. It is an act of aggression.

absolutely well said. Red toothbrush

I won't use correct sex pronouns in the workplace if it causes offence; however I won't be forced to lie as I find that morally offensive. So I would avoid pronoun use altogether, and make a point of highlighting how clunky this renders communication.

I just want my colleagues to do their fucking job.

Well this is terrible advice as it’s discriminatory and illegal.

I treat them the same as I would a Muslim or Christian colleague, they have a radically different set of beliefs to me - but that’s okay in a tolerant society. I only raise an issue where those beliefs infringe on the rights of others.

I try to avoid pronouns and used preferred name (the same way I call my colleague Chris and not Christopher, because that’s his preference). But given I only use their sex based pronoun if they’re not there, there’s no offence if I make a ‘mistake’ (which I would point out to the audience of that ‘mistake’).

I think the problem in persisting with sex based pronouns is that it can be perceived as malicious and actually I don’t want to unnecessarily upset people in a workplace, because one day I might need their help!

Interesting, is there evidence of this? I’d be interested to read it, because sexism could still be articulated without he/she and I would have tended to a preference to “they” in all cases (mostly because I don’t like that in my male dominated sector I’m “outed” as female with all the sexist connotations of that without being in the room / over email etc etc).

THIS.

I can see 'they' creeping in more and more though. It does make more sense than individual pronouns , but it does have a lot of downsides, particularly for safeguarding and the fact this is being imposed and is not a natural evolution of language.

What are the super special ones going to demand other people do when everyone's 'they'? It'll be so disappointing for them. Demands will escalate, of course, I'm sure.

I also agree with the PP who noted the fact that those demanding pronouns rarely / never ask about the pronouns of others and just transphobically assume them. I fully intend, the next time someone corrects my pronouns to tell them my gender based pronouns are zie / zir too because I don't identify as female. I AM female, but if we're making life harder with gender-based nonsense then I think the effort should at least be two way. (Of course I'm fine with those who use sex based pronouns too).

It's the same in newspaper articles - the violent rapist gets to dictate pronouns and the victim's pronouns are assigned based on sex. What a total abdication of professionalism that journalists are perpetuating the abusive dynamic.

Can you give an example of how a Christian or a Muslim colleague would demand require you to express something outwardly that you know to be false in your dealings with them?