Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

[Needmoresleep]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

How likely is it that he told himself in early childhood that he was AGP?
Well he won't have told himself anything about it in early childhood because the idea that it emerges in early childhood is made up.

The concept of male/female clothing is complicated by the fact that historically gendered clothing wasn’t always distinct. In Ancient Greece and Rome male and female clothes were fairly similar, particularly Roman. Essentially both men and women wore robes, thus a publicly cross-dressing Roman would just look like a bloke. In Asian, Arab and African countries, robes were worn by both sexes, and still are.

Then there were periods where mens’ clothing was very elaborate, ostentatious, highly coloured, lacy, frilly etc - styles we would now identify as “feminine”, and of course makeup was worn by both sexes.

And yet, he has early childhood memories are of wanting to wear girls’ clothes and wearing his mothers’ tights.

Other men and other parents have reported the same.

I think there is an insistence that I often see on MN, that if someone behaves in a selfish, abusive, misogynist or solipsistic way, they absolutely know what they are doing and it's deliberate. I struggled with this a lot with my ex, when his incredibly difficult behaviour led me to end the relationship. He had to know he was passive aggressive, irrational selfish, lazy, sexist and a liar, right? But he would insist he wasn't, leading to massive arguments.

It's taken me a lot of thinking to really get my head around what was going on. I've realised he needed to see himself as Mr Nice Guy so deeply, he would lie to himself and believe his own lies. He would swear black was white to make himself look good and I was always so frustrated thinking why isn't he embarrassed to just spout bare-faced lies? But he was convincing himself, so that he never had to say OK, I was in the wrong. To this day he thinks he is Mr Nice Guy. And he can be nice when he wants to be, and he performs that well to friends, so they feed that back to him.

This guy is a high-level professional, multiple-degree-holding scientist and extremely intelligent.

When you've seen this level of delusion up close, ongoing for years, you understand that some people simply cannot stand to be in the wrong or called out on anything or be a "bad person", and they will twist reality so that they can assure themselves they never are.

I'm not saying this is DH necessarily, but I am saying it can be very complex, and psychology does back that up. It absolutely is not true that just because someone has a fetish, they clearly perceive themselves and their motivations that way. The mind can be extremely good at building an alternative reality that makes your self-image feel more comfortable – and trans ideology offers that on a plate to AGPs.

And yet, he has early childhood memories are of wanting to wear girls’ clothes and wearing his mothers’ tights.

A lot of gay men have similar experiences though.

I've known one or two erotic cross-dressers aka TVs, and they practised their hobby in private, eg with their girlfriend.

In the last twenty years, the law changed, a certain charity needed a new moneyspinner, the world wide web exploded, pornification took off, and 'trans' became modish and respectable.

I think this prompted a load of TVs who never would have done it otherwise, to smash up their families.

If all the things DH is proposing come to pass, then we will have good things. Data integrity. Free speech. No proselytising to minors. Women-only stuff.

But we'll still have a shedload of public erotic cross-dressers. Which is a weird outcome that I could not have imagined thirty years ago.

Exactly. How would he have identified or even heard as a child of AGP, and been able to analyse that this was his issue not gay or bi or curious - when his sexual and gender orientation hasn’t even formed yet.

And yet, he has early childhood memories are of wanting to wear girls’ clothes and wearing his mothers’ tights.
All children dress up. Thats not AGP. The tights thing has probably been retconned back in time.

@MrsTwatInAHat Really interesting post that illustrates the complexities of human consciousness. IQ is not the same as EQ. And even someone with a good EQ can fail to realise, or refuse to acknowledge or examine aspects of their personality, or intentionally deceive themselves about them. Sometimes from a need to believe they’re a good person, but sometimes it’s just laziness - being honest can be hard work.

Well all children have sexuality, it’s just not developed. But not all children want to dress up in clothes of the opposite sex specifically. Some adults say they always wanted to be the other sex from childhood and indeed some children express this. Just as some say they always knew they were gay.

At what precise point in his life do you think this fascination with wearing women’s clothes morphed into AGP?

Christ, it takes a certain kind of twisted psyche to ask a transwidow to analyse the nascent fetish of an AGP who, in her opinion, is trying to gaslight and manipulate women just like her.

It's a no from me.

Well all children have sexuality, it’s just not developed.

In what way do children "have sexuality"? I would say that sexuality develops at and after puberty.

Pre-pubescent children don't have sexuality. They are children. The political movement that suggests that they do, is the one that tries to break down boundaries around age of sexual consent.

Sometimes I think that Aldous Huxley's Brave New World should be recommended reading on the school syllabus.

Also, kids dressing up in opposite sex clothes is not an indication of their future sexuality. Because all kids do it, ask any nursery worker.

People suggesting that dressing up is an indication of sexuality are as icky (and misguided) as people who see tiny kids hugging and say "ooh is that your girlfriend Freddie!" Just no. Ordinary child behaviour is not sexual behaviour.

Children make sense of the world through play.

I could retrofit plenty of theories about my nascent sexuality as a child, but I was a child who was playing and reacting to what was going on around me.

How would I know it’s upsetting for her? She’s voluntarily contributing to the discussion.

I wouldn’t necessarily assume that discussion of an adulterer in the public eye would be upsetting to a woman whose DH was unfaithful particularly if she’s contributing to it herself. I don’t see the two things are related.

I don’t see the two things are related.

Correct.

If any lurkers are wondering about the history to mumsnetter's opinion of Debbie Hayton, this thread is fairly self-explanatory.

Page 3 is the bit about the boob hierarchy - which has to be one of life's spectacular coincidences.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow?page=2

They’re two completely different things. Childhood sexual development is bogstandard child psychology and a completely different subject to the perverted paedophilic mindset

All this talk about psychology (or lack of knowledge thereof) reminds me of Posie saying "I'm not a vet but I know what a dog is."

I think most boys begin to be sexually aware before puberty has clearly started. If they are exposed to sexual images, or groomed, that awareness may be accelerated. When puberty is definitely underway, boys typically become hyper aware of their sexual urges, and are very vulnerable to inappropriate stimuli including porn. Some will be highly embarrassed by any mention of their sexuality. Some will develop a furtive interest in women’s underwear; usually that will be a phase.

Some will develop a furtive interest in women’s underwear; usually that will be a phase.

The gender dysphoria therapy book that was written by the Tavistock whistleblowers Sue and Marcus Evans talks about something similar to the Oedipus complex in trans-identified males. I'm not a psychologist, and the chapter on males was heavy going by contrast to the rest of the book, but what came out very clearly was a desire to effectively become the mum in order to be loved by the mum. It can be related to trauma, grief or other exposure to significant early loss, overly strict enforcement of sex-based stereotypes ("no, boys don't play with that"), many different things. In the case where an boy grows up to become homosexual, it sounds like this won't lead to any "crossed wires" with their emerging sexual feelings but perhaps in boys who grow up to become heterosexual or bisexual it can? Especially so if there are inappropriate stimuli.
I'm not for a minute suggesting that AGP should be normalised or considered as a sexual orientation. Just that understanding the origins of its development are important so that therapeutic interventions can be created which stop the pathway if it is possible to do so. Obviously there will always be cases where it simply won't be possible, owing to significant mental health issues and/or narcissistic behavioural issues.

Next instalment
https://archive.is/uF80q

Hayton’s book will allow discussion of AGP and associated behaviours, which has to be useful.

"'I do like my body,' she adds. 'I much prefer it now.' She is just shy of 6 ft in her size 9 ballet flats, with long, silver hair, clear skin, an imposing bosom and long legs."

Well I managed a couple of paragraphs but that's me out.