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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker's latest - Glasgow

323 replies

TheShadowyFeminist · 23/07/2021 11:00

I wilted in the heat so missed the pub afterwards. But PP's comments on the 'fawning' I'm finding interesting. Because even at a meeting of women who are fighting for their rights, and the right to say no to any male, irrespective of identity, being given access to female only services/space/provision/sport etc. it seems that female socialisation kicks in when a male wears a dress.

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

I think the 'fawning' is something that we al need to reflect on & work out why this is how some of us behave over someone who (as far as I'm aware) has failed to acknowledge their part in writing guidance for schools that breach female children's rights under the UNCRC.

I think we all need to 'be more Posie' in life & activism.

OP posts:
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Cailleach1 · 23/07/2021 12:28

@CatherinaJTV

Linehan and Kirkup don't use women's spaces, and I don't think either of them have ever attempted to deceive people about a material fact like their sex. Then there's that rather revealing interview with Hayton and wife, which I believe is available somewhere on MN. Does not come across in a good light at all.

actually, Linehan has dressed up as multiple mock lesbians and posted profiles on a trans-inclusive lesbian dating site, which is modelling exactly the behaviour that he is supposedly opposing: cis men entering women's spaces for personal gratification.

No, it was to illustrate the point that it was all a pile of boll*cks (in the eyes of people who acknowledge biological reality). Show it up for what it is. Anyone who isn't a woman can do the same.

I agree that any man can do it for their own personal gratification. Some degree and for reasons which can be dangerous to women and children. That is why men in any guise were not in those spaces before. Now, those boundaries are being eroded.

Indeed, I heard (from someone in my family) all this erosion being referred to as having a predatory feel to it.

PronounssheRa · 23/07/2021 12:34

@CatherinaJTV

cis is a prefix, not a slur. I am a cis woman. Linehan, as a man (born and identified as such) has absolutely NO business in a lesbian space. I note though that you think that women's spaces should be open for the "parodies" of men. Great Feminism (slow clap).
Cis is considered by many to be offensive.

Glinner was making the point you make, that men have no business in lesbian spaces, that you can't see that is astonishing

NonnyMouse1337 · 23/07/2021 12:36

Great video from PP. A number of women around me did comment and roll their eyes at some of the women speaking or in the crowd / pub fawning over the men. I didn't care much for DH being there, but I didn't particularly like the open mic session at the end that was dominated by men and felt apprehensive at the thought that DH might take the mic. Thankfully DH didn't.
I had no idea DH was being paid by the Spectator to attend. I would have been pretty pissed off had I known.

OvaHere · 23/07/2021 12:40

@dragoncheeselady

I was there on the day and it was pretty obvious that Hayton was trying to insert himself into photos and into conversations. That damn female socialisation kicked in for a lot of women who obviously felt they couldn't tell him no or they would appear rude. He was clearly there for a reason and low and behold there was a story all about the day by him in the Spectator the next day. Using the women who were there and who spoke to further his own career. Hayton has his own agenda and he is willing to use women to get what he wants. We should not let him do so
This.
TirisfalPumpkin · 23/07/2021 13:03

I figure let DH talk, and newspapers are allowed to send representatives to events, but DH should be held to account for what is said, like any other commentator.

I get the fawning to an extent. There's enormous relief when a man or a TW gets it and speaks up for us because they have ten times the reach women do - they get listened to. We've got to be careful that relief doesn't cause them to be put on a pedestal - even the well-intentioned ones aren't infallible (I quite like the FFS person mentioned upthread, but is it fair to say they've got a few issues) and we run the risk of dodgier characters being given undue legitimacy as spokespeople.

NancyDrawed · 23/07/2021 13:03

@CatherinaJTV

cis is a prefix, not a slur. I am a cis woman. Linehan, as a man (born and identified as such) has absolutely NO business in a lesbian space. I note though that you think that women's spaces should be open for the "parodies" of men. Great Feminism (slow clap).
I am a woman, I do not accept the unnecessary label 'cis', That you do, is your choice, as it is mine to reject it. It is only a short step from 'cis woman' to 'non trans woman' which I have seen used and which again is not necessary - there are women (adult human females) and transwomen (adult human males who identify as outside of that group).

I am glad you agree that males do not belong in a lesbian space.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/07/2021 13:08

Both "cis" and "non trans woman" presuppose a belief in gender identity ideology so please do not impose your personal ideological beliefs on non believers.

RoyalCorgi · 23/07/2021 13:09

I get the fawning to an extent. There's enormous relief when a man or a TW gets it and speaks up for us because they have ten times the reach women do - they get listened to

That's true. There are also tactical reasons for supporting DH. It's really useful to be able to point to a transwoman and say that the extremists do not speak for all transwomen. It also makes it harder for TRAs to accuse feminists of being transphobic, not that that stops them of course.

Flippin · 23/07/2021 13:17

Cis is a gender marker “identifies with gender assigned at birth “.

Anyone referring to me as “cis” misgenders me.

IsItShining · 23/07/2021 13:25

Yup, is 'cis' means anything, then it doesn't mean me, so I don't need it.

If it's meaningless as in, anyone gets called cis regardless of whether they have the mystical inner identity thingy then I don't need it.

NotTheFunKindOfFeminist · 23/07/2021 13:27

I thought that "cis" was banned on Mumsnet?

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 23/07/2021 13:29

@CatherinaJTV

cis is a prefix, not a slur. I am a cis woman. Linehan, as a man (born and identified as such) has absolutely NO business in a lesbian space. I note though that you think that women's spaces should be open for the "parodies" of men. Great Feminism (slow clap).
Talk about spectacularly missing the point!
Mulletsaremisunderstood · 23/07/2021 13:32

I get the fawning to an extent. There's enormous relief when a man or a TW gets it and speaks up for us because they have ten times the reach women do - they get listened to.

This is so true, and I'll admit I was one who felt pleased at first that DH got it, or at least they said they did. But their actions show that 'Debbie' is out for 'Debbie' and nothing more.

I think in some way I was so grateful that here was a TW not screaming the 4 letter T word at us, that I thought DH must be different.

TirisfalPumpkin · 23/07/2021 13:33

My objection was

  1. it's against the rules. GC posters comply by avoiding words cited in the same paragraph as 'cis', or our threads end up looking like swiss cheese with deletions. Same courtesy should be extended.
  1. the term is being used about an actual, identifiable individual, who has 'consciously rejected' it, to use the terminology of the forum guidelines. Glinner is a big boy and his feelings are probably not hurt, but we undertake to respect individuals, if not ideas, so we can have a productive conversation; saying 'it's just a prefix' is disingenuous, when many receive it as a slur.

relatedly, 3. It's fine to self-identify as cis if you want to. It's the branding the unwilling with an ideologically-charged term that isn't acceptable.

R0wantrees · 23/07/2021 13:37

That's true. There are also tactical reasons for supporting DH. It's really useful to be able to point to a transwoman and say that the extremists do not speak for all transwomen. It also makes it harder for TRAs to accuse feminists of being transphobic, not that that stops them of course.

It seems many women may have been convinced of this but it is actually the case if women have enabled certain transactivists/men with autogynephillia to take up national platforms and opportunities so as to advance their personal cause/s? What are the consequences if/when their aims are not those of women?

I have come to the conclusion that some men made a tactical decision to attach themselves to women's groups (and later other groups/organisations with growing influence) so as to try to shape the narrative and to limit demands.

February 2020 Quilette article by Debbie Hayton,
(extract)
"I speak from experience when I say that it’s difficult for autogynephiles to admit the simple truth that they are simply heterosexual males who use the conceit of female self-identification as a means to rationalize their sexual attraction to a female version of themselves...
Autogynephilia drove my own transsexualism." (continues)
quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

Relevant threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4211107-Dr-Debbie-Hayton-interview

Datun · 23/07/2021 13:41

I totally agree that a man, any man, alters the dynamic as soon as they enter a female only space. It's palpable. And obviously it's not anything that a man, any man, would ever be aware of, or could ever be made aware of.

But it's ten times worse when they are actually the living embodiment of the concept that we are all campaigning against.

And I think it's a bloody cheek, to be honest. And I do see it as manipulative. Every single transactivist will claim that they are different to all the others. And their access to female spaces is the legitimate one. And it's always a different reason why. From longevity, to 'passing', to surgery, to a GRC, etc.

And in DH's case, it's claiming to support the very women who will be excluded as a result of Debbie's erstwhile campaigning. Which, as Posie rightly points out, has never been recanted.

Debbie apparently has also used a female space on the basis of permission from the women. So that is Debbie's reason. Expecting women, standing right in front of Debbie, to answer the question of access.

And it's exactly the same as all the other reasons. Women's boundaries are up for grabs by men. It's just the justification that changes.

FreeBritnee · 23/07/2021 13:42

I've been involved in this fight for a number of years now, and I've witnessed how the inclusion of males, irrespective of claimed gender identity, often shifts the tone, the balance, the atmosphere for women & limits what they will say/do to further their cause. It also means that some women who really need that female solidarity can't access it.

This has also been proven when discussing issues related to race and prejudice/bigotry. The conversation will be completely different when all the who’re people leave the space.

FreeBritnee · 23/07/2021 13:42

*white

PatsArrow · 23/07/2021 13:48

I'm uncomfortable with PP having a go because DH wore a dress.

What is this? Do we believe the line "dress as you like" or not? Do we believe men and women can express themselves in clothing as they like or not?

DH does not think he's a woman. There were other women there wearing sundresses, shorts, t-shirts. I just find it uncomfortable getting angry that DH wore a very casual sundress.

He was covering it for The Spectator. I know others may disagree but I think a transwomen has something interesting to say in all this. The Spectator often platform other women including Julie Bindel.

DH wasn't the only author of the schools guidance, there were others. I don't know if it's within his power to 'withdraw it'. What he could do that would be useful is to personally and publicly say it was wrong.

I've been in this GC 'fight' for a while now, but I just can't spend energy on being angry at DH who consistently tries to be an ally. Others may completely disagree but it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

FionnulaTheCooler · 23/07/2021 13:54

DH does not think he's a woman

Why transition at all then, especially to the point of getting a GRC and changing your official documentation to female? There's no consistency between what this person says and what they do.

terryleather · 23/07/2021 13:55

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

Haha, I knew this was going to be about DH. Love Posie for her fearlessness.

The reality is, 'Debbie' gets something out of this, validation that he is somehow 'more authentic', than the rest, I dunno. He is happy to point at others and show them up for their farce, but still maintains his own. It's quite disturbing, and I believe he is smart and thinks he has outwitted us all.

I admit at first I was just glad that DH was speaking out in a rational sense, but it's clear that DH thinks that they are different, and one of us. Maybe I was just so glad to hear rationality from a male who seemed to care. But it's all for their own benefit, nothing more than an exercise in validation.

They will never be one of us, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Agree with this completely, Mullets.
TheShadowyFeminist · 23/07/2021 13:59

@CatherinaJTV

cis is a prefix, not a slur. I am a cis woman. Linehan, as a man (born and identified as such) has absolutely NO business in a lesbian space. I note though that you think that women's spaces should be open for the "parodies" of men. Great Feminism (slow clap).
Glinner himself finds 'cis' offensive. I myself & others here find it offensive. Refer to yourself as 'cis' if you choose, but as you were talking about Glinner & he's said it's offensive to him, you should have the decency to respect that & stop using terms to label others that they find offensive.
OP posts:
R0wantrees · 23/07/2021 14:00

What is this? Do we believe the line "dress as you like" or not? Do we believe men and women can express themselves in clothing as they like or not?

Woman Are Human article,
'These Chains That Have No Name: Interview with Trans Widows Voices'
By Donovan Cleckley -March 31, 2021
(extract)

TWV "We are all, men and women alike, guilty at one time or another of denying the evidence before our own eyes, because it does not fit in with what we have previously believed – or because it enables us to reinforce an aspect of our beliefs or personality that is important to us. For example, I have just spent a disturbing weekend watching the recent Woody Allen documentary and asking myself why I ignored for so long what was in plain sight. But it was because it concerned a man whose work I admired.

I encountered an interesting example of denialism recently among gender-critical feminists in the UK. There was a story in the newspapers here about a man who worked in a supermarket and how he had obtained the agreement of his employers to wear a skirt – that is, the female uniform, rather than the trousers customary for male employees. He said that he doesn’t think that he is a woman; he just finds women’s clothes more comfortable.

Gender-critical feminists believe that gender nonconformity is perfectly acceptable, and that, if more people were accepted when they showed nonconformity with sex-role stereotypes, there would be no need for people to feel that they have to transition. These feminists believe that the problem is not in what you wear; it is in the idea that what you wear can change your sex. Unfortunately, in this instance, the desire of many feminists to show that they are accepting of gender-nonconforming behavior entirely overrode their usual ability to think critically. They took the man’s claims entirely at face value, and, for a couple of days, gender-critical social media was full of women saying “Good on him!,” “We need more of this!,” etc. What they failed to notice was that the man in question, if you applied a modicum of critical thought to the article, was very plainly autogynephilic and had been given a license to exercise his fetish at work. Aside from wearing a skirt, if you actually looked at the images of him, he was wearing women’s shoes, stockings/tights, and a padded bra. Further, he described a typical pattern of escalating boundary-breaching behavior – and that he had high heels, makeup, and wigs at home. Also, he described, in his own words, ‘borrowing’ clothes from girlfriends. He was duping everybody around him about his motivation.

Some of the women supportively sharing the article became very defensive when challenged, even when challenged by women who had their own experience of living with this kind of behavior and who they would usually support. The only bright side of the whole sorry incident, is that it convinced me that those women who look down on us for not leaving sooner, and who say they would have left at the first sign of that sort of behaviour, are actually just as gullible as we were, if not more so. We all want others to think that we are not bigots, but it behooves us all to think about when our performance of not being bigoted toward crossdressing men becomes actively bigoted against women." (continues)

www.womenarehuman.com/these-chains-that-have-no-name-interview-with-trans-widows-voices/

TinselAngel · 23/07/2021 14:01

@RoyalCorgi

I get the fawning to an extent. There's enormous relief when a man or a TW gets it and speaks up for us because they have ten times the reach women do - they get listened to

That's true. There are also tactical reasons for supporting DH. It's really useful to be able to point to a transwoman and say that the extremists do not speak for all transwomen. It also makes it harder for TRAs to accuse feminists of being transphobic, not that that stops them of course.

Would you say that the women that this tactic excludes is a price worth paying?
PatsArrow · 23/07/2021 14:06

Why transition at all then, especially to the point of getting a GRC and changing your official documentation to female? There's no consistency between what this person says and what they do.

But then this means that you don't believe anyone can exist as 'Trans'. DH doesn't have a GRC. Someone asked on Twitter a few months ago and he said no.
I don't want to speak for him but DH would probably admit he has AGP tendencies but he thought long and hard about transition and felt it was the right thing for him. His Triggernometry interview is interesting.

On this board we often say we have no problem with people living or presenting how they please and we support Trans people. Well here is Transwomen who is not only certain he's biologically male but is prepared to stand up and say so loudly.