Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

Many people live life without being involved in competitive sports, prisons or homeless shelters or using public changing rooms/toilets. So it doesn't impact their life - that's not being complacent, that's dealing with the immediate things that are relevant to oneself.

Furthermore, and I'll expect a flaming for this (which will just illustrate my point), GC/Radfem posters can be absolutely zero tolerance/hard line on issues concerning girls/women - without actually considering the specifics of an individual case. I personally know someone born male, had all the top and bottom surgery and some facial surgery, presents, passes and lives as female. This person isn't any kind of risk to girls/women and isn't taking anything from girls/women. But any rights to do with this individual are dismissed by radical posters as "male" and irrelevant.

Things work out when people work together. They don't work out when you have extremists from 2 different sides fighting each other.

Sports for example - OK biological males should not be competing in female sports. Also a fact is that many transpeople love sports. When radical posters discuss sports, their line is: no males (fine) and then when asked about potential opportunities/categories for transpeople - the answer is "not my/our problem". And that's the issue - there's no discussion on how we can all achieve fairness and safety for everyone together. We are all people and yes there is an element of "be kind" - it is a fact that there are transpeople who have trained and love sport and end up with no place to do it - if you can't be sympathetic to that because you are only concerned with girls/women, then that is a problem when we try to work these things out.

it is a fact that there are transpeople who have trained and love sport and end up with no place to do it

that’s simply not true though is it? Biological men can play on men’s teams. It’s not women’s problem if men are not accepting of them. Why don’t TRA spend any time shouting at men for failing to be inclusive? What is it always women who have to give up their places & spaces?

And yes as a feminist by definition I’m concerned about women and girls

O don't see why it's not OK for women to be interested in the rights, safety and dignity of women and girls and not especially interested in making way for males.

Here's an opportunity (aside from competing in their own sex class) which was offered, in order to make sports fair and safe for women. Not one competitor applied -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/swimming/2023/10/03/swimming-transgender-athletes-open-category-scrapped/

Same thing with third spaces (I.e. gender neutral toilets and changing rooms as well as single sex provision). Dismissed by TRA's as 'transphobic and othering'.

You realise very quickly that there's no middle ground, or accommodations or other options which are acceptable, besides total capitulation.

A large number of sport also have mixed versions - formal or informal, so there are lots of options for trans people to play sport outside of women's sports.

I do agree that GCs tend to be hardline, but we have generally come to that position from starting off being accommodating and learning the lesson of where that gets us.

That’s fine as long as you know that means trans men will be accessing women’s toilets.

Most transmen I know use the cubicles in the mens. And you know what, nothing happens.

Changing rooms, they use single cubicle or change at home. They make it work so not to upset anyone. Like nice people do

True that @Truthlikeness the proverbial inch was used to take a mile so now it’s just a flat no!

Hockey has a mixed version but that’s not good enough for TW players who insist on playing on women’s teams with predictable results
https://reduxx.info/exclusive-trans-identified-male-playing-in-womens-field-hockey-club-injured-female-player/

Sports for example - OK biological males should not be competing in female sports. Also a fact is that many transpeople love sports. When radical posters discuss sports, their line is: no males (fine) and then when asked about potential opportunities/categories for transpeople - the answer is "not my/our problem". And that's the issue - there's no discussion on how we can all achieve fairness and safety for everyone together. We are all people and yes there is an element of "be kind" - it is a fact that there are transpeople who have trained and love sport and end up with no place to do it - if you can't be sympathetic to that because you are only concerned with girls/women, then that is a problem when we try to work these things out

Actually a number of sporting events/governing bodies have offered non binary categories but the take up has been very poor or in some instances actually zero. The cynic in me suspects that when transwomen lose their physical advantage in women's sports they are not interested in playing anymore and half the reason for their participation was for affirmstion. Again it should not be up to woman to find or offer solutions to trans participation while the men's events soldier on unaffected. There should be zero compromise on safety and fairness for women's sports.

I'm watching the Leicester v Leinster rugby game on the telly right now. Leinster and Ireland prop Tadhg Furlong weighs 130kg, by comparison England womans scrum half is 55kg. If Furlong decided he is in fact a woman and wanted to continue his international career what middle ground do you suggest that would allow him/her to play against women? Yes, world rugby have already banned transwomen from playing with biological women and yes it is an extreme example but TRAs were seriously arguing that this scenario would not present an issue.

I think what's supposed to happen is he says the magic words and instantly becomes a fey little creature who can't even open a crisp packet and if anything, is at more risk of sustaining than inflicting injury.

Even when they look like men?

Because we're all people are we all need to live on the earth together.
I certainly think it is fine to be interested in the rights, safety and dignity of woman - but if you dismiss anyone who doesn't fall into that category and don't care about them, then any discussions that you have with them are not going to go very well. And this is the case. It is really not going well. There are arguments online every day and IRL, there is physical violence. The OP is asking - why are women complacent re trans issues. And I am telling you that you I would fall into the category of "complacent", even though I take my safety very seriously, because I don't want to dismiss other people who aren't women. I want to have solutions that are fair and suitable for all of the people in our society.

I am a woman, I have a teen daughter.
But I also have a husband and teen son.

I am certainly interested in the rights, dignity and safety of women and men. Not one at the expense of the other or with disregard and disinterest for the other.

I think it is wrong that Lia Thomas has competed in women's races. But I don't just think she should be chucked out of swimming entirely, I think there should be some sort of sports/team theapist/pastoral care member of staff who could sit with her and have a polite and calm conversation to let her know that she absolutely cannot compete against women - with full reasoning relating to male puberty and science - and she must therefore continue to compete against men or help set up, pioneer and participate in a trans category. It would actually be in the interests of woman to help with this as then there would not be any biological males in women's sports.

Yes @pointbreak77

we know what transmen look like.

still included in my feminism. Still can use the ladies if they prefer.

do you honestly think you’re the first person to try that gotcha with us @pointbreak77 ?

tje answer is they’re still women, they’re welcome to be with women

I think it is wrong that Lia Thomas has competed in women's races. But I don't just think she should be chucked out of swimming entirely, I think there should be some sort of sports/team theapist/pastoral care member of staff who could sit with her and have a polite and calm conversation to let her know that she absolutely cannot compete against women - with full reasoning relating to male puberty and science - and she must therefore continue to compete against men or help set up, pioneer and participate in a trans category. It would actually be in the interests of woman to help with this as then there would not be any biological males in women's sports.

Not sure if you are being naive here but Lea Thomas knew exactly what male physical advantages he had when competing against women and was more then happy to exploit that fact knowing full well he would be supported by the University who themselves were utterly captured by trans ideology. He went from being an average college athlete ranked in the hundreds to winning events. The idea that he needed to be educated about male puberty and science in some therapist is nonsense.

But Klcak, if it wasn't for all this 'trans nonsense' there would be no need for someone to sit and have a nice conversation with Lia Thomas about competing, they would never have pushed themselves into women's competitions in the first place.

It isn’t a gotcha.

I just want someone to explain what you do when you see someone like that in a women’s toilet? How do you know they are a woman?

you don’t.

So as a lesbian you now get to decide that we are homophobic?

My partner lived as a lesbian until he was 30. He is a transman. People in our lives know he is trans.

Most of our friends are lesbians and disagree with you. Does that make their opinions more or less valid then yours? Or are some lesbians more right then others?

I hate this idea that one person speaks for the entirety.

You as a lesbian don't get to decide we are homophobic simply because you are gay, any more than Lia Thomas gets to represent all trans people in sports.

And how does coming on here calling me homophobic help this debate? I could call you transphobic but I doubt that would encourage thoughtful communication between us.

However it is a good example of why I don't love sharing my views.

Also I've never been a lesbian. I believe this would be a good example of bi erasure.

I didn't say educated, I said given full reasoning. As is fair with any rejection. And if she was not OK with this, then actual therapy would be needed to help her.

Yes.

@pointbreak77 I'd bet that woman would never use a women's bathroom so this situation wouldn't arise. Validation innit.

If they did and were challenged, I'm sure they'd have no problem saying 'actually I'm trans' and the world would continue to spin.

Lia Thomas has been very vocal that they do not believe that they have an advantage over women and that women who point out that there is an advantage are 'fake feminists'.

Good luck with that.

Presumably Transwomen also use cubicles in the women's bathroom? I don't imagine the majority are whipping out their penis (if they have one) and urinating in the sink.

When radical posters discuss sports, their line is: no males (fine) and then when asked about potential opportunities/categories for transpeople - the answer is "not my/our problem".

The other answer, frequently given though you chose to ignore it, is the obvious one. They can compete against other males and play in all-male teams.