Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

What bothers me about the trans man gotcha is that they have chosen to opt out of woman hood.

That's not a good reason to remove single sex spaces from women who need them.

Whether they use a cubicle and no one notices or stand there in full view doing windmills with their dick, doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be there. Period. (Pun intended). Women should have the right to be there without the presence of a penised male, regardless of intentions.

It's not difficult!

I was just called homophobic because my partner is a transman.

I mean... That doesn't seem like a great talking point if someone really is interested in a conversation.

That’s fine as long as you know that means trans men will be accessing women’s toilets.

But if they use men's spaces they may well put themselves at risk.

This illustrates the main issue which is, the problem is not symmetrical. The risk/threat is from males towards females. No matter how said males and females identify.

The 'reasoning' was pointed out numerous times by the women he was competing against and sharing changing rooms with. The response was predictably that they were transphobic and that their objection to male genitalia in the locker room should be addressed via counselling. Riley Gaines, 12 time all American athlete was accused of being a bigot, jealous and a sore loser.

That’s an interesting take - do you mean they should then also be exempt from women’s spaces?

What spaces do you think transmen should use?

And should they be eligible for Maternity protections? What about quotas for women politicians?

I think there should be some sort of sports/team theapist/pastoral care member of staff who could sit with her and have a polite and calm conversation to let her know that she absolutely cannot compete against women - with full reasoning relating to male puberty and science

You're joking now. You think a fully grown man needs a trained professional to sit him down and tell him he's been through puberty and not to attempt to cheat? How stupid do you think he is? I yield to no one in my contempt for his behaviour, but I don't think he's a half wit.

No because they are still female, but I'm pretty sure you said upthread that they might face issues from women if they enter them and you are right, but that is because they have chosen to try to look like men. That is not a good reason to remove single sex spaces, it's certainly not the gotcha you are trying to make it.

Exactly.

And you might also note that the male sex class is not facing any of the flack about being transphobic, because the male sex class is not losing anything by the gender identity ideology coming into some power:

Not their places on the podium, not their leadership places (trans men are in the news mostly for giving birth, not for taking over leadership in men's organisations while trans women quite frequently do take over leadership in women's organisations, or win awards as the Woman Of The Year in something, etc.)

The male sex class is not exposed to greater risk of sexual violence in their prisons if trans men are put there or in the toilets or dressing rooms etc.

The male sex class is not even told to lose all names which have traditionally been used to denote membership in it. Fathers are not told that they should be 'impregnating parents', for instance, the way some now tell mothers that they are 'gestating parents' or 'birthing parents' Men are never called 'ejaculators' the way women are now often called 'menstruators.'

Even GC men in social media get treated with a velvet glove by the TRAs while GC women are mercilessly attacked.

So when we have these debates about why GC women are so rigid or so unwilling to make compromises over what percentage of women's rights they should be willing to hand over we never notice that men are not expected to hand anything much over.

I find it very worrying that so many girls/young women think that being a woman is so utterly shit they want to opt out of it. The shocking increases to GIDS type services are amongst teenage girls

our girls & young women are being subjected to sexual harassment, a porn soaked culture & messages that say ‘proper’ girls wear pink, love glitter & fluffy things, have perfect hair & make up at all times. It’s no wonder they try to escape

somone said once that TW are running towards something and TM are running away from something. It seems to me there’s someting in that

But to address the question in this thread, remember how many women were openly and adamantly against women's suffrage at the time? Virginia Woolf's mother was one of those, and there were organisations by women explicitly working against women getting the vote. And I saw a quote from the 1930s where a female writer noted how young women of that era were trying to very clearly express their separation from and disagreement with those horrid suffragettes of the previous generation.

So women have always split into these kinds of camps, for reasons which I believe are quite complicated. They range from full internalisation of the misogyny in their era and societies (there are religious groups and religions which explicitly tell women that their choice is hell after death if they refuse the yoke during their lifetimes), the awareness that women don't have power in their societies and that to go against the powerful is risky and dangerous, especially if the attempt fails, and fear of losing the rights/safety they have personally carved into the existing system.

Then there are all the reasons discussed in this thread, including wanting to side with the underdog (however incorrectly that might be defined), not being personally affected, fearing social ostracism from a culture which still subconsciously privileges male desires, and, most of all, not actually being aware of what is happening.

I have met so many women who don't understand what 'trans rights' actually mean today, including the fact that the female sex class is to be made invisible and ignored.

Also, the existence of some male looking women isn't going to make me welcome a group of mostly entirely male looking men into female spaces. It's a weird argument.

Klcak · Today 15:47

Sports for example - OK biological males should not be competing in female sports. Also a fact is that many transpeople love sports. When radical posters discuss sports, their line is: no males (fine) and then when asked about potential opportunities/categories for transpeople - the answer is "not my/our problem".

Hmm.

I have a problem, why haven't YOU fixed it? It's all your fault!

Not a gotcha - just annoying that there seems to be an argument that people can make sweeping statements for an argument as an apparent fix all.

plenty of women who have suffered sexual assault would not be comfortable sharing a space with a trans man.

(I mean the common theme is always … men cause the problems in every scenerio).

not pretending to have the answers either because I genuinely don’t have it. But I know it’s not as simple as forcing people to use the toilet that matches their biological sex.

I don't think its just complacency. I attempted to engage on this forum to learn more about the issie. I was called a TRA (which I'm most definitely not) and a handmaiden for asking questions daring to disagree with some things someone said. One poster even took it upon herself to follow me into different parts of mumsnet demanding answers.

I was also looking at other more pro trans spaces and was called a bigot and a TERF.

It's quite difficult to engage with this if both sides are full of ideologues who will only have a sensible conversation with you if parrot back their views to them

There was a really interesting thread earlier that got zapped because discussions ALWAYS become hostile and there’s so much verbal gaslighting and people twisting everything you say to start arguments.

and then we wonder why women are complacent and don’t want to come over here to talk and learn?

it’s not a welcoming space at all. There is a lot of snide.

“It's quite difficult to engage with this if both sides are full of ideologues who will only have a sensible conversation with you if parrot back their views to them”

precisely this

But men don't need single sex spaces in the way women do. I'm sure they would prefer them but that's another matter. Men aren't at risk from harm by having trans men in their single sex spaces, in fact the trans men remain the ones at risk of harm.

if you can't be sympathetic to that because you are only concerned with girls/women, then that is a problem when we try to work these things out.

//

That's pretty much how feminism works.

If biological men DEMAND to cheat compete against women and seemingly don't give a shit about the impact of this then it's not the problem of those women to figure out the alternative option for those biological males.

Perhaps instead of trying to take our sporting opportunities they should focus energies on an alternative.

Absolutely.

Why is is women are judged for being unkind but people trying to take our sports places are not judged?

Agree

It feels like two rival religions, each believing itself to be The One Truth.

i mean it’s the same with politics. You are never going to win people to your side if you attack and make them feel stupid.

I think it's hard because we get a LOT of bad faith posters on here. So yes, sometimes discussion can be brisk or emotive.

That said, what I really value here is a space where we can discuss openly, robustly, with evidence and in good faith.

I've not found it 'unwelcoming' even way back when I was dipping my toe in. Fucking terrifying, yes, on occasion. Mentioning no names. 😁