Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

Yep. I'd also say that women will withdraw from other things like:

Submitting work to certain outlets, applying for grants/funds/opportunities, applying for work at certain organisations.

Countering that, we may find women quietly volunteering in other areas where they are able to make an impact. And networking with other women. And setting up new organisations, groups, etc.

Women have always known how to organise, and resist.

Thank you @ArabellaScott

some of the falloff is probably post—covid inertia. But that would be easy enough to overcome with a bit of a push. If there were any leaders. But, obviously it is the older, experienced thinkers and planners that are more likely to spot the looming issue and self select out of it.

I have huge admiration for those leaders opting to stand and fight back. But I have too much going on, and guiding was a ‘nice to have‘ for us. I just don’t quite care enough about it for this one to be my particular hill. but I do have my hill picked out.

I have a trans identifying child and I am gearing up to fight tooth and nail that they get the same standard of evidence—led treatment that literally everyone else is entitled to expect.

There are absolutely ways to accommodate trans young people safely and comfortably though. As a youth worker I regularly need to bring mixed groups away and we're just more careful with how we plan things like accommodation, sleeping arrangements, bathrooms etc to meet everyone's needs safely and appropriately. It's one thing to feel that a particular young person is a threat to others due to behaviour or past history, its another to exclude them because of how they present and because of their appearance and gender identity. Either the young person is known for harmful behaviour in which case you risk assess and either manage the risk or the trip is unsuitable for them to attend, or they've no history of harmful behaviour in which case there is no reason for them not to be considered safe to be on a trip. That's the risk assessment that happens for every residential, every day trip etc etc in every other school or youth service. Your assumption that because a young person is trans that they must be in some way harmful to the girls in your group is very unfair unless there's been past behaviour to make you think that way. And again, you'd only know this if the parents disclose the young person to be trans. If they don't 'pass' accordingly. So really that comes down to whether you feel risk planning within the guides is done properly or not. But excluding vulnerable children because you think they must be a threat if they're trans is not it. And just FYI not one of the trans young people I've ever worked with has felt remotely comfortable using the same dorms as non trans young people of the same bedroom. They wanted and needed privacy for changing etc and requested their own room which was easily enough catered for. If you're not comfortable working with trans young people then I agree you probably can't be in youth work at the moment since that's a huge part of many young people's narrative at the moment. But don't say they can't be safely accommodated.

But excluding vulnerable children because you think they must be a threat if they're trans is not it.

It's not because they're "trans", it's because they're male. Please stop obfuscating and pretending it's some sort of prejudice against "trans" when it's actually about biological sex.

"obviously it is the older, experienced thinkers and planners that are more likely to spot the looming issue and self select out of it" and this is the exact type of undermining, passive aggressive and insulting language that shuts other women down when they disagree with you.

I can assure you that I'm highly experienced in youth work and have been working full time in it for many, many years. I've had to navigate this as has everyone else in the field. Calling yourself an experienced thinker actually says a thought about what you think of women who either disagree with you or who are younger.

Well said, @wellies54. It’s also true of teachers, health professionals and anyone in contact with children.

I wish your statement could be displayed on the wall of every school and NHS building in the country.

It's one thing to feel that a particular young person is a threat to others due to behaviour or past history, its another to exclude them because of how they present and because of their appearance and gender identity.

Nobody has said this, ever, as far as I'm aware. Concerns are based around mixed sex dorms, in this context.

Because you do understand the problems posed by having mixed sex dorms, I assume?

But don't say they can't be safely accommodated.

which literally no one has said. What everyone has said is that a teenage boy identifying as a girl belongs in either the boys dorm or in their own room

Absolutely no one has said “ooooooh no all trans children must be excluded”

Of course they can be safely accommodated.

this isn’t about trans kids. It’s about the safeguarding ALL children

if you read my post. GGUK explicitly expects us to take sexually mature males and females away, sharing the same sleeping and washing facilities and we are not allowed to tell anyone.

GGUK don’t define trans as anything other than ‘anyone who says they are‘

if you can’t think through what problems might arise then you shouldn’t be doing youth work.

Even if you DGAF about the girls in that tent… what if that poor trans kid gets falsely accused of sexual assault or rape by some evil scheming teenage girl. We are told how vulnerable trans kids are. Doubt that’s going to help them.

or what if (and tbh, we were little shits, and we’d totally have done this) smuggling a boyfriend in under the guise of them having transitioned so we could have a week away with them. We were all New Romantics, so the boys had bigger hair and more eyeliner than the girls at that stage. Parents discover this, maybe a teenage pregnancy and I’m in thr shit for allowing it. Except I’m not allowed not to allow it.

im not prepared to,end up at the centre of a court case for a bloody voluntary organisation who have made it clear that if I raise ANY issues. I’m on my own.

i do technical risk assessment in my day job and risk being up in court having to defend decisions I’ve made. I know I can defend them. And my employer has my back.

The difference in position between anything involving gender and …. The rest of the world is stark. And I want no part of the harms that will be done.

Yes, I think this quiet retreat is happening everywhere. If it continues it will be a massive win for misogynists and a catastrophe for women and girls, for future generations.

Encountering an aggressive man wearing a dress in a women’s toilet made me less willing to go out. I realised I’d started calculating how long I could stay out without needing to pee, and avoiding events that would last too long.

I’m now making a conscious effort to stop this, and grab my life back. I refuse to have my life diminished by misogyny. But it’s difficult.

Of course i understand the issues with mixed sex dorms having worked in the sector for many years, but thank you for being patronising. The poster has said (unless I'm misunderstanding) that she left the organisation because she did her own personal risk assessment and decided it was best to leave than to work with a trans female child?? The only risk assessment i can think of where that might become a real issue is predominantly around residentials and spaces that are single sex only where children would be unsupervised etc which I've stated is easily managed by provision of a separate room which is what most trans children would want anyway. So to me, the decision to refuse to work with a trans female (or trans male child) is excluding them. They are applying to girl guiding because they are trans and as per the organisational stance fit the bill to be there as they are living their life as a female child. So refusing to work with them is because they are trans. They wouldn't be asking to use the service in the first place if they weren't.

@SallyWD Sorry, but safeguarding doesn't work on the principal that most people are nice so it'll probably be ok.

Also, Just for clarity (and the lurkers)

i didn’t say it was taking trans kids away that was the issue. it is males in female spaces that gives me the safeguarding heebiejeebies.

im 110% for the trans boys joining. And the demibois. in fact, the entire gender constellation is welcome on my (alas now hypothetical) camp. Just not males.

not if I am explicitly not allowed to segregate appropriately as per standard safeguarding practice.

They wouldn't be asking to use the service in the first place if they weren't [trans]

Of course not. Because no man or boy has ever taken advantage of lax rules or gleefully jumped through a loophole.

Because they think they benefit from making men feel more important or they’re so down trodden they think the only way to get ahead is to appease men. Usually they’re too intellectually lazy to think, they’re too frightened of independent thought and it’s repercussions they’re happy to accept the outright misogyny.

the same women who would have claimed women shouldn’t have the vote.

I'm a teacher, Lavender14. I do residential trips.

There'll be no mixed sex dorms on my watch.

So I would refuse. & everyone would miss out.

If a male student doesn't want to share with other males for any reason, we can generally find a solution.

The female students are not the solution, & neither is lying to them or their parents.

Ask me to do that, & you'll have to find someone else to run the trip (& you won't...none of my colleagues are that daft either).

Fortunately, I'm overseas & the whole 'trans kids' social contagion never really took off here (& has now largely gone the way of bottle flipping...).

People have the right to be naive if they wish. But no adult has the right to inflict the harmful results of their naïveté on children!

as they are living their life as a female child

It's not possible for any male to live life as a female. Female is a word that is based on sex, not gender identity.

she did her own personal risk assessment and decided it was best to leave than to work with a trans female child?

nearly.

i did a personal RA and decided if GGUK expected me to ignore the decades of safeguarding they’d taught me (no males in intimate female spaces) then the world had gone mad and I CBA with an unpaid volunteer role that wasn’t worth that kind of hassle.

Your assumption that because a young person is trans that they must be in some way harmful to the girls in your group is very unfair

Nope.

It's fair to the girls not to have to share with male teenagers.

It's unfair to the girls to call them transphobic for not sharing with male teenagers.

i didn’t say it was taking trans kids away that was the issue. it is males in female spaces that gives me the safeguarding heebiejeebies.

im 110% for the trans boys joining. And the demibois. in fact, the entire gender constellation is welcome on my (alas now hypothetical) camp. Just not males.

Please note this post by @Bolleauxxxx @Lavender14

This isn't about "trans" - please stop misrepresenting the beliefs of other women who don't share your ideology.

Your assumption that because a young person is trans that they must be in some way harmful to the girls in your group is very unfair

how very transphobic..

don’t you even care about those poor vulnerable trans girls who will be falsely accused by the (checks notes) horrible teenage girls they are forced to share a tent with.

When my daughter was a teen I knew most of her classmates and therefore knew what actual sex they were. DH didn't. So, I once or twice had to step in with 'DH, if P wants a sleepover with Sam, that's fine because he's female. But Emily is male, so no.'

How do you split the sexes safely if not by sex, Lavender?

Thanks @Ereshkigalangcleg nailed it.

infact I’d be delighted if all of the children — of ANY gender identity could go on the kind of old fashioned guide camp I used to go on as a child. They were Proper famous five/swallows and Amazons lashings of lemonade type stuff. Bloody glorious.

heck I’d fundraise for that. I might even drag myself out of self imposed exile to help out.

just as long as males are kept separate from females as per alllll the safeguarding.

This. I live life as a female because I have a female body. So I have periods, have grown children in my body and am going through menopause. Males csnt do that. Everything else is stereotypes.