Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

[JazbayGrapes]

I mean, outside GC or radfem circles, i have heard some of the most outrageous things, coming not from the loony left, but seeming well-meaning, semi-conservative women. Like "What is your problem? Can't you just #BeKind?"

1. Re. sports: "A lesson in inclusion and acceptance for a girl is much more valuable than any trophy. Or maybe your daughter should train harder."

2. Re. prisons: "That's easy - don't break the law and you'll have nothing to worry about."

3. Re. homeless shelters: "Imagine being so ungrateful for a roof over your head that you would complaint about trans."

4)Re. public toilets/showers/changing rooms: "If you are such a prude to undress in front of male genitalia, them maybe you should stay home and never go to gyms or swimming pools or etc."

I'm a a loss...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

is a good place to start for ppl looking to understand a bit more

But why assume people here are trying to convince people of things?

I don't really care what others think or believe. I don't care about 'winning people'. Think what you think, make up your own mind.

Evidence, reasoned argument, critical thinking. That's what we need to deal in. Not manipulation and persuasion. In fact, I'd say the latter is what's tended to get us into this mess.

@ArabellaScott I agree with you that it's good that GC people have place where they can talk openly. I just don't think you can complain that not women agree if you scream handmaiden at them for asking questions.

The use of the term trans nonsense in the title of this thread isn't exactly signalling to women who have concerns but also sympathy for people struggling with their sex / gender identity that their opinions are welcome.

You are here discussing all this with various people with various viewpoints. I don't see any screaming.

I haven't discussed any viewpoints around gender on this thread. I've explained a reason why women might appear to be complacent and discribed my experience on here.

Fair enough.

So on the off chance that we either won't be able to tell if a trans person should be on our spaces or not. Or, if it's obvious they shouldn't and we don't feel confident challenging.

It's deception then isn't it? Biological males barging in and knowing in most cases no one will do anything about it.

All the while knowing there will be women who will find this distressing including abuse and rape survivors. This is not something a good human being does.

Be kind? Show me it works both ways and I may entertain the idea.

For the ones saying that it's too polarised and there should be a middle ground, what would that look like to you?
We've suggested third spaces many times and it's never accepted. What else is there?

You can't let the good ones in and keep the bad ones out, so surely it makes more sense to keep all males out?

I imagine after the next election, where I'd be amazed if Labour don't win, that this issue may well start to become even more problematic, people aren't going to be able to keep looking the other way and hope someone else fixes it.

I've heard the second point re prisons almost verbatim from one of my closest friends, really took me by surprise and I think back to it often. She's an incredibly intelligent woman and I wish I'd challenged her on it more at the time - it was a group conversation and my partner picked up on something else she said (about gender being 'assigned' at birth), so the prison point kind of slipped by in the conversation and it didn't feel right to pull her up on it later... I often ponder over how I could peak her without scaring her away 😅

As to how a woman can come to think like that - she is a high flyer at work, in the defence sector, formally a science PhD. Very male dominated industries and she hasn't always felt well -received or respected by male colleagues, so I think she believes there's some parallel in the 'fight' for acceptance and that she should stand with trans people because they too aren't accepted and it's the right or kind thing to do. She has a lot of far left friends too and despite being v scientific does hold what they say in high regard and tends to believe what they say without looking into it any further. Although she does have that same level of respect for me so maybe I should be a little more confident in broaching the subject again and challenging her a bit!

Re: prisons, the argument appears to be 'it's not women like me so who gives a fuck?'

Women in prison are vulnerable -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57103702.amp

The Scottish Government have recently deemed that there's an 'acceptable level of risk' to subject them to in order to validate the feelings of violent male offenders. Tiffany Scott being one particularly terrifying example (among many), and who was approved for transfer to the female prison estate before the Isla Bryson case hit public knowledge.

I find it endlessly interesting how men hit the awww bless mummy instincts, and there's value in signalling loveliness about them, whether status or feeling nice. But women who aren't friends or equals are just..... fodder. No interest in what happens to them, there's no value or purpose in caring.

What often staggers me most is that these are most often values by people who identify as being socialist in views.

Yes. Along similar lines, I’ve noticed a massive difference in the way vulnerability is perceived by those arguing against single sex spaces, depending on if it’s men or women who are vulnerable.

When men are vulnerable there’s something noble and precious about it - it elevates them and makes them worthy of and entitled to compassion, care and protection.

When women are vulnerable, it degrades us. Even saying that women are vulnerable relative to male people is “misogyny”, apparently, because to acknowledge our vulnerability is to “acknowledge” our “inferiority”, apparently.

Rather than making us worthy of and entitled to compassion, care and protection, it makes us somehow disgusting, weak and ignoble for having needs. Like we just haven’t tried hard enough to be strong and invincible.

We’re letting the side down by not being powerful enough, and confirming all the old stereotypes about women just being bloody feeble.

And the reality of our biological differences is completely irrelevant. Whereas a male person who’s taken oestrogen is “weak as a kitten” and that male “weakness” makes him the most holy, sacred and awe-inspiring person on the planet.

The doublethink is just breathtaking.

And I can’t see anything other than the deepest, direst misogyny at its root.

I believe there should be a unisex option for trans people.

I believe trans sports should be a thing, with no one born a biological male competing against women is allowed.

I don't believe in hormone therapy for children.

Again though, how do I and others participate in these discussions when I am being called a closet lesbian and homophobe for having a trans partner?

How would my trans partner be part of these discussions on here?

In real life we share these beliefs with people, and actually have changed some people's minds because a transman understands more than most the advantage a biological man will always have in competition.

But why would he or I want to share on here when we are insulted?

If in order for the women on here to feel heard and respected he simply has to not be trans and that's not going to happen.

So again, do women on here even want the support of people like us? Do you want our voices with yours or am I as a woman supposed to shut up because I'm not the right voice or the right kind of woman?

The board is moderated, there are fairly strict rules for engagement. Anyone can post here within the rules. But that doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with you. There's often a lot of disagreement on here; it's the nature of a discussion board.

I think it's great to talk to people who have different angles, so long as it's in good faith. I'm not going to pretend to believe things that I don't, though.

@ArabellaScott it's moderated to the extent that posts are deleted but MNHQ rely on users complaining and often the damage is done before they have a chance to delete posts that break the rules.

The thing is Jemima is you also have to understand that from our pov we’ve had years of ppl coming on here & not posting in good faith. Taking partial screenshot's and posting them on Twitter & Facebook (they never ever link to the whole thread) so yes sometimes we can be suspicious and prickly but years of harassment from TRA will do that

also I don’t know about anyone else but I’m beyond tired of endlessly having to fight to just retain what women already have, to push back the endless encroachments by men into our spaces & places, of funding legal cases for women bullied in their workplaces. I’m bloody knackered by the whole thing.

What damage do you mean?

I do think this is really true, there needs to be a base line of respect for a range of schemes of thought and ideology rather than an expectation of black and white thinking. I do think there's an assumption made about women who are accepting of trans identity in the first instance and often the narrative around that is very patronising. Take for an example @TawnyTs post where she describes not being able to understand why a PhD educated scientifically minded woman is happy to take her mates word on things and not done her own due diligence. What's to say that she hasn't read into it all and arrived at a different conclusion using both her intelligent mind and her life experience? Why can her conclusion not be accepted (disagreed with but accepted) and respected as the valid conclusion of an intelligent woman? It does come across a bit 'hivemind' and if women don't agree with the same conclusion then their intelligence is questioned. That's frustrating because I disagree with a lot of posters here, but I can still respect you all as intelligent women who have a genuine concern and have made an informed conclusion. It's just one that I also disagree with.

My personal issue is that I think all of those things are fine to want and demand. My issue comes with the constant anti trans sentiment in general on here.
I think striving for protecting women’s space can exist at the same time as also allowing trans people to exist without calling them all fetish perverts.

also I don’t know about anyone else but I’m beyond tired of endlessly having to fight to just retain what women already have, to push back the endless encroachments by men into our spaces & places, of funding legal cases for women bullied in their workplaces. I’m bloody knackered by the whole thing.

This.

Yeah, nobody does that, though. Unless they are fetish perverts. In which case I think it's very important we are able to describe them as such.

No one here calls all trans people "fetish perverts". For a start many of them are female. The male ones have a range of reasons for identifying as the opposite sex.

This 100000%. Sometimes it's just really unnecessary. I understand valid arguments about women's space etc etc but often it's blanket lies and stereotyping and genuine scaremongering and I can't engage with or support that because that is absolutely harmful to trans people.

I genuinely can’t follow the thought process of anyone who thinks a man can become a woman anymore more than I can follow the thought process of someone who thinks the Earth is flat 🤷🏻‍♀️

Blanket lies? Can you share any?