Insistent on they/them

[chipmugs]

Name changed.

I play a team contact sport. It's a women's team and we enter in the women's league. Two players on our team that I know of are transwomen. One post-operative and one I don't know as she hasn't been around very long. Some other players are, I think, calling themselves non-binary but are obviously at least to me female.

Another player, a female, recently announced at the end of training that they'd noticed people misgendering others at practice and saying we mustn't do this, it will be called out as we are an inclusive club. During training and practice we should all be "they/them". I'm almost certain she meant that someone has said "she" referring to non-binary players. I don't think anyone has referred to the trans players as "he", I'm fairly sure of that.

I don't want to be policed in this way. It's a women's league. The transwomen are spoken about with female pronouns. If you are a female with issues surrounding being described with female pronouns then maybe this isn't the club for you. I am considering saying I want to be referred to only as she/her to see what would happen if I did.

What would you do in this situation?

Please don't tell me I shouldn't accept a place on a team with trans women because there aren't many opportunities for me to play sport and although I'm not keen on it I'm cowardly and not ready to lose something I love.

The pro trans take on this request would be ‘Degendering IS Misgendering’

TW and the NBs may well argue this one out between them, saving you the bother.

Especially if the TW on the team are likely to demand she/her for personal validation.

If this is true then there’s greater things to worry about than bloody pronouns.

Go down to the nearest gym, find the biggest, meanest looking guy you can... we're talking someone twice the size of every other human within 100 miles, and tell him to join your team identifying as a woman.

You'll be surprised how quickly policies get changed :)

We're all transgender though aren't we? I mean I know there's never any definition that makes sense for what being 'trans' is but you can argue everyone is transgender except for possibly the most extreme 'fits stereotypes' men and women. I don't know the Rock and Martha Stewart? Although the Rock is in the arts and Martha Stewart I think was a successful businesswoman so they don't really fit either.

I never wear make up or dresses and don't believe in gender which makes me agender i.e. trans by TRA logic.

I honestly don't understand how the sport is any fun if you're controlled in this way. Walking on eggshells is not a fun sport, in my opinion. Especially not with a side order of 'massive male bodied person could cause significant physical harm'.

Have you seen the testimony of some of the women who have been left with permanent injuries from playing sports with transwomen? The risk really isn't worth it.

Come on OP, will you tell us what sport, and which country?

Sorry, not sure I understand your reply. OP refers to trans women in the team which I am taking to mean males who want to be perceived as women.. or does OP mean females that want to be viewed as men/‘non binary’?

Just so there is no confusion about using they/them pronouns 😁

Coach struggles with using pronouns

The OP (and the members of teams they play against, who incidentally might not consent to play against men) need to worry about getting injured by the men playing.

This.

There is no way I would want they /them used for me. Why would I? I'm female and identify as a woman (because i am one) and therefore use she/her. But why should you be 'forced' into using those pronouns out of politeness?

Agree with all of this.

I'd actually feel ashamed and absolutely no pride in winning a match against all women with men on my team.

Because it's cheating and it's putting the wants of two men above respect for the other team, and fair play for them. If they don't know ahead of time it's also putting them at increased physical risk without their consent.

I mean, really, why bother at that point?

In sport we balance safety, fairness and inclusion - sometimes one of the aforementioned will conflict with another. Each sport decides which factors are most important.

Roller Derby (to pick an example completely at random) has picked inclusion (of males into the sport) over safety and fairness, and that's how it is. Some participants might not agree, then they have to play off their own desire to participate, versus their feelings about playing with and against males, (in a sport that was formerly female only).

I believe the NBs will win. The third person singular pronouns will become obsolete and we will all be addressed in the third person plural, it is happening already, it has already begun.

Many see the third person plural, “they”, as neutral and not offensive to anyone, the third person singular pronouns carry far too much risk of offending nowadays and people are preferring to play it safe by avoiding them.

Personally, I think this is the end of the team. I have seen it happen before, male person joins womens team, women on the team are uncomfortable, opposing womens teams start objecting, issues with changing rooms, women leave and find another sport (usually a non team sport).

It the standard way women cope: don't confront, back away nicely and go do something else. And ten years down the line we wonder why no girls play sports anymore....

Thinking about it, there is an argument that misgendering could also be discrimanation based on sex or sexuality. The best option is always to use the pronouns someone uses for themselves.

Does that mean you will, and encourage others to, stop using cis to describe anyone that hasn't specifically said they want to be referred that way?

"I" and "me"??

They/them is not a helpful term as it also refers to the plural form of groups of people?!

How are we to know when 'they' refers to a group of people and when it refers to one person who refuses to be a she or he?!

If you think that I’m going to call my son “she” when I know full well that that’s lying, you can think again. I don’t deliberately lie every time I mention my son.

I need to go back to the basics to understand this.

1. This is a women's team.
2. What does 'women' mean in this context? Because there are trans women in the team, it must be 'has inner abstract gender identity which is feminine'. But because there also seems to be nonbinary people in the team, this cannot be the case as they don't have an inner abstract gender identity which is feminine.
3. So why is the team defined in to contradictory ways? Either the definition should be based on sex in which case the trans women should seek other teams, or the definition should be based on abstract feminine gender identity in which case the nonbinary people should seek other teams. It can't be both at the same time, though of course there is no particular reason to base a league on some some unfalsifiable inner beliefs as those don't affect anything in someone's ability to play sports.

I was talking about discrimination in the context of this situation and similar ones. If you don't want to respect your child's wishes in this regard, that's up to you.

While I have no issue referring to someone as they/them if they so prefer, however I like to be referred to as she, so just the same they want to be called they, I and anyone who also does should for the same reason be referred to as she if that's their preference.

I do feel this pronoun thing is getting a little toxic as I'm sometimes feeling that I'm not allowed to still be a she! Is that the case here or have I misunderstood?

Thankfully everyone in my circle is open, clear and respectful about their preferences and we all are aware. And if anyone forgets accidentally, there's no massive calling out or fuss (as I'm sure some people do understand that if you've known someone 20+ys as she or he, you may slip up now and again if they've changed their preference) I know not every person is like this though...

I think in this instance maybe just ask everyone what they would prefer so you're all on the same page?

I wonder if it will evolve like with “you” which is second person plural/formal, we lost the singular thou except in some dialects.

In the US people often say “you all” or even “y’all” to make it clear when they mean more than one person, in the UK we might say “all of you” if we want to emphasise that it includes everyone. Perhaps something similar will evolve “they all”, or “all them”.

Personally I intend to keep using he and she but I see they used all around me in written English instead of he/she now and increasingly hear it used in spoken English.

I think there will be many more examples like in this sports team, especially in predominantly female spaces where they/them is adopted.

“OMG!! You can’t go around telling people what pronouns to use!! Everyone here gets on well and wants to be respectful. We should just carry on doing our best! Shouting about it just causes ill feeling and draws attention to people’s differences and that’s really mean. We all just want to fit in and get on with the game!”