Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

[IamSarah]

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

That post was deleted so of course you can say what you like about it. Suffice to say my recollection of what I posted isn't that.

Posters get deleted all the time. See tinsel page 1 here. It's not the done thing to then misrepresent the deleted post. I would rather not reopen the debate so would prefer not to post my thoughts again. But I don't take kindly to this ongoing allegation I'm somehow a sociopathic antisemite. If there were evidence of that I'd have been banned.

I don't consider myself feminist as I don't know anything about feminist theory and did not come from an academic background. I post on this board because I advocate for females.

Slight correction to the Pink News published timeline:

SS says refuge residency was 8.5 months

and took place directly after the TV show was filmed (so 9 years prior to the date of the article rather than 10 years).

Have Rise changed policy since 2011? Because SS was very obviously a male in a wig in 2011 and while SS likely did need support (2011 SS seems way too vulnerable to be on a TV reality show, imo) a women’s DV shelter is a totally inappropriate place for a vulnerable male to be housed.

I see SS has since written a book for children called ‘Are You a Boy or Are You a Girl?’ 🤦‍♀️

(co author Fox of Fox & Owl)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Are-You-Boy-Girl/dp/178592267X

Thankfully most posters welcome you, rather than attack

I don’t want theory to be a decider

It’s a funny thing, in real life I never argue. I see who and what people are like and vote with my feet. I spend time with productive people and avoid the moaning critics.

On here I keep getting caught up in these discussions- I think it starts when I try and work out what’s going on, by which time I’m invested!

Thanks Eastern. That's why I post here and don't have any other social media accounts.

There are thousands of women like me who could be part of the cause but would be put off by the actions of some feminists.

Religion is about ritualistic patterms of behaviour and the thought forms and beliefs that accompany them. Political ideologues are as religious as any person of a particular faith (Christian, Muslim,and so on)

When someone holds to something religiously - they cling to it for life - and automatically oppose anything which counters it or contradicts it as being some kind of devil or evil.

Apart from two people on Twitter, at least one could be very well muted because aren’t they also in the fb group regularly vilifying KJK, has anyone on Twitter seen someone correct KJK directly? So that she would see it?

*Of course, providing that Rise definitely has a public policy that they would no longer refer any male to a female single sex space? A spaced as we know it - not a ‘woman’s inclusive space’. I don’t think anyone has an issue of a male being referred to an inclusive space. I am talking about a single sex space.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4963562-taliban-are-putting-dv-survivors-in-womens-prisons

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4743921-the-toxic-debate-this-could-have-been-avoided

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4883783-total-sheros

Just googled, here are 3
I don't post here much any more because of the group think and cliquiness, plus tendency to revert to personal attacks and misrepresentation if you are "the wrong kind of woman"

When someone holds to something religiously - they cling to it for life - and automatically oppose anything which counters it or contradicts it as being some kind of devil or evil.

Ain't that the truth.

Re Rise, it offers single sex support for female DV survivors. It also helps trans survivors separately.

It's an amazing, woman centred charity.

You can donate here www.riseuk.org.uk/donate

Yes well I would say feminism is the closest thing I have to a religion. The way women are treated as second class citizens and our ongoing exploitation and oppression are a huge priority for me.

Sneering at women who don’t qualify some hurdle of feminist is the last thing that should happen

If someone has the theory be generous and encourage, keep it simple (for everyone I can’t understand the tweet in the op)

The amount of energy expelled to attempt control it by virtue of superiority is counterproductive

Reading the link, Rise referred a trans woman to an LGBTI specific case worker, who then found the TW a space in a shelter accepting trans women.

Do you give a shit about the women in the DV shelter with Sarah Savage, Adam? Kellie Jay does, and IamSarah likely does (even though she took a circuitous route to get there, she emphatically did eventually).

Whereas you seem to be hand waving the described situation away because women aren’t legally guaranteed female single sex spaces (we KNOW! That’s why we are HERE! Because it’s fucking awful that women fleeing DV or seeking rape crisis counselling are being shoved in with biological males with no option for a female-only alternative).

Perhaps Rise have changed policy? I hope so!

Yes. I seem to spend a lot of time working through things to work out the truth. Maybe that is why I remember the history leading up to this.

I mean, I remember typing up transcripts so we could see exactly what was said to answer accusations. Not because I think someone is beyond criticism, but because if serious accusations are being laid, I want to see the evidence.

The scolding isn’t making me anymore likely to vote Labour and I say this as a former Labour voter who felt they weren’t sufficiently socialist for me to join as a member. I can’t get past how little self respect women would have to have to stay thinking Labour is the answer when they have told Labour don’t want them in the party and don’t want their and our votes.

All that effort feminist women within Labour are putting in to be heard and getting nowhere. Thats just humiliating, I’m not prepared to beg for scraps from men.

I'm responding to the insistence on apologising to KJK for calling her a liar, not my feelings about DV shelters. So don't extrapolate what I posted to "you welcome men in DV shelters"

I think many women would not want to share a refuge with a male, but equally there will be female survivors who don't care about who they are sharing with, they just want to get away from their abuser. And I think TW and men suffering domestic abuse and needing refuge deserve it. So I'd prefer to see a mixed economy with signposting/direction for users to the appropriate shelters/charities (e.g. some for women only, some that are mixed sex. I would say some for men only but there isn't the demand as we all know).

I read the pink news article as saying that Rise did appropriate signposting. To me this is a good thing for victims, so yes I think KJK lied by saying they give spaces to men. She knew what impression that gives even if its not technically incorrect if you really squint at it. She said it to cause a reaction.

Which is your particular way of framing your experience of life as a woman - and which is valid, of course. But it does not constitute the totality of human reality. We all have our own perspective, ways of framing situations, and our own particular life experiences. What you call yourself, or how you 'identify' yourself is not as important as how you conduct yourself.' Identifying as' something is just a performance, a role, or a job.

“A few days later, after the charity had done a comprehensive assessment of the danger she was in, Sarah was offered a place in a women’s refuge.”

Has anyone any further information that this was a single sex refuge at the time or an inclusive refuge? And did women at the time get told it would potentially include male people?

There is so much to unpick here. There seems to be very little clarity.

Sarah Savage explicitly says that Sarah Savage was accommodated in a ‘Women’s Shelter’

Women’s shelters should be for women. Adult Human Females.
That’s KJK’s position and I agree with her.

No males in female spaces, ever.

1.30 for the quote

I don't "identify as" a feminist, I am a feminist.
Same as I don't "identify as" a woman, I am a woman.

I might be misunderstanding your point. I assume most religious people don't "identify as" their religion but feel its a core part of who they are.

Those are good threads, thanks. I’m sure I was on a different one about the three young rape survivors waiving anonymity.

I ask because whenever I notice your name it’s negatively- I find it hard to know your thoughts because you don’t express them so much as contradict other people. But I’m not good at noticing usernames. I also find there’s a lot of code that I can’t see behind so sometimes I don’t know how to interpret a post. It comes across as ambiguous unless you know the context and poster’s history.

And I also only see posts that enter ‘active’ so that’s pretty self limiting too. Basically I’m a lightweight.

Upthread you scolded women for not identifying as feminists! Now you say identifying as a feminist is unnecessary!

It may be a coincidence but I've just had lots of new donations come in, so if it was anything to do with this thread thank you lurkers 💛

I think starting this thread in the "Sarah" persona was a strategic error.

It’s to do with trying to ring fence the board to those who use the term feminist to describe themselves only. The right kind probably

There is another board now where they could avoid the gender one altogether

But being negative and scolding others seems the priority