Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

I agree with you but prepared to get thrashed.

I feel most strongly about make up - it just baffles me how society has got to the point where a huge majority of women feel they need to edit their face for it to be aesthetically adequate, but only a tiny minority of men do.

I remember two of my bridesmaids telling me I was "brave" not to wear make up on my wedding day. So rude honestly! No one thought my dh was brave to go around with his ordinary face!

I recently had a c section and was googling hospital bag lists, astounded that make up "for going home" was on some of them, literally the last thing on my mind (or anyone's, surely) was what I looked like

I think there are some very relevant questions there but as pp said, put on your hard hat!

I agree with everything on your list OP

Ps the people who will thrash you on here are the so called pro choice feminists. It's the ideology that anything is OK as long as you consent to it.

I'm of the more radical view that there are some things no one should expect someone else to consent to. They're just inherently exploitative. Like, say, choking during sex, or commercial surrogacy (arguably any surrogacy), or cannibalism. Remember that guy who got convicted of cannibalism who ate another guy's genitals with his "consent"? It was argued in court that you just can't consent to that. I can't remember the criminal's name and I'm afraid to google it

This reads a lot like "I believe in all these things and if you don't you're acting against all women".

Who do you think you are! Why do you think that your opinion is the right one and everyone else has to agree. Love the ‘even after all the arguments have been presented to them’. Yeah, that is called ‘disagreeing’.

It sounds like you lack emotional intelligence. It doesn’t matter how tight you think your arguments are, if you ultimately think everyone who doesn’t agree with you is wrong, and aren’t open to considering other people’s opinions, values and perspectives, they will not be open to listening to you either.

It made me giggle that you sound so baffled and frustrated by this. Try reading something like ‘How to make friends and influence people’

Surely you've heard of Stockholm Syndrome?

Women develop many, many ways to deal with subjugation. Enthsuastically going along with it is one of them.

I mean:

I feel like we are groomed into self-hate.

You have it right there.

See also: 'fawn' being one of the fight/flight/freeze responses.

Ok I see I am going to get hate. Obviously people disagree on things. But my point is that I see women disagreeing with other women that certain things are negative for us. And I don't see men having the same arguments.

This is a discussion board. If you find it so hard to discuss sensitive issues and different views with women respectfully, maybe Mumsnet is not the place for you? There are other places on the internet 🤔

I was exactly the right age for 'Laddette' culture. I did not at the time know that I was a feminist - the bra-burners had succeeded and we had equal rights protected in law, plus I didn't hate men. (I know, I know.)

But Laddette didn't sit right to me. It felt like we were lowering ourselves to the level of the men whose behaviour toward us we disliked.

Yes, I was called an old-fashioned prude for this.

Perhaps today's TWAWs are yesterday's Laddettes, or would have been?

I agree.

Also, all the women changing their names when they get married because
a). They hate their "maiden" name
b). They want to have the same name as their children/husband so they feel little a family. Why can't the husband change his to her name?
c). It's easier to travel/doctors /schools etc
c). They hate their own father
d). The husband was very attached to his name but they weren't bothered
e). Their "maiden" name was their father's so it doesn't make any difference as it's a man's name anyway.

@Mumoftwo1312 I'm with you on makeup. Why is your natural face unacceptable or brave when your husband's is not? It's putting chemicals on your skin. I think it is losing popularity in every day wear though (maybe due to the pandemic??) I wear it very occasionally so I guess that makes me hypocritical but I don't pretend it's empowering. Recently I've been noticing some women in the media with little/no makeup and my instinctive reaction (one I'm not proud of) is that they don't look good. It's a process of eyes adjusting because I'm used to seeing plenty of not good-looking older men with bare faces, and far fewer women.

Ok I see I am going to get hate.

Did you really just say that?

Hm. I enthusiastically embraced self destructive behaviour at that age/era. But I don't know that I'd ever have managed to embrace the very basic reality-warping that TWAW calls for.

I don’t think I’ve been disrespectful at all!

I’m not sure where you’ve got that from, or why you think I now have to leave Mumsnet

It's not just women is it though? Humans in general does so many things that are bad for us. It's because it's easier, short terms gains, makes us feel good.

I am with you, OP, but I think it’s not immediately obvious in a transactional relationship whether power lies with the buyer or the seller - hence ‘girl power’ (vom), ‘sex work is work’, ‘my boob job was for me’ etc.
Plus, as remarked up thread, the brainwashing power of the patriarchy.

Yes, and I'm aware my post could come across patronising or victim-blaming which it wasn't meant to. Many women are vulnerable and that leaves them open to grooming and generally being trapped in bad circumstances. I can see why you'd use cognitive dissonance to cope.

Time and again this topic comes up and confuses me. I LIKE to wear heels, I LIKE to wear makeup, I LIKE to look the way I look. It is not society that has made me want to look this way I just like to look good to me on the outside knowing I am also good on the inside. It is an insult to be told otherwise and it is getting relentlessly boring as a topic too. If you chose not to do anything with your hair or face or body then fine but why judge people who do? We are not walking vacuous idiots we just fancy being more like a butterfly than a moth.

Also the patriarchy (1) places a high value on women’s decorative qualities and (2) encourages them to be consumers so that they are more interested in shoes than running the world. This gives rise to the (specious) argument that women’s interest in fashion is motivated by the desire to impress other women and therefore interest in appearance is nothing to do with the patriarchy at all.

@thedankness I have excellent skin and am very comfortable with my bare face. I think it's linked to only ever wearing more than mascara and lip gloss on special occasions. My pores have always been allowed to breathe. Not for feminist reasons (although there are and I am one) but because I do a lot of exercise. Theres no point in wearing powder or creams that will simply be sweated or swum off.

Partly it’s hard not to do some of these things - like leg shaving - without adverse comments. I don’t wear much in the way of make-up, have never owned heels and am going grey naturally. I didn’t think twice about giving up my maiden name though- and have never regretted it. I suppose if you are consciously aware of what you are doing and why, that helps.

I'm talking about things specific to women though. Sure we all might struggle to eat healthily because we are hard-wired to enjoy fat and sugar, but wearing heels literally just causes your feet to hurt. Men don't wear painful clothes/accessories and then deny that they are and defend the right to wear them against men who point out that they're painful. As a trivial example.

I love having soft smooth legs and pits and other bits (all of them and ALL for me as I am single) I love painted toenails and fingernails, love my makeup and doing my own hair but when I was married I never changed my maiden name.