Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

No, I’m not saying I came up with the idea of make up myself.
I am saying that even in places where make up exists, is sold, and women wear it the cultural expectations across the whole place (country, region) isn’t always all woman are socialised to wear make up.
You are ignoring subcultures, religion, alternative lifestyles and so on.

targeted marketing - makeup was generally promoted to women, while things like facial hair shaving products are promoted to men

in fact, since social media became a thing new products and procedure for men are gaining momentum (just ask any balding man)

"Is this the Anglo take the husband’s surname thing? That is actually not due to being considered your husbands property. I know this because in my culture, women kept their surname but were still their husbands property."

You're jumping to a conclusion there.

A quick Google gave me this from a professor of social policy:

"This change in women’s identity, by taking a husband’s name, has emerged from patriarchal history where wives had no surname except “wife of X”. The wife was the husband’s possession and right up to the late 19th-century, women in England ceded all property and parental rights to husbands on marriage."
Why so many women still take their husband's last name (theconversation.com)

That sums it up for me. And the idea that women can’t know their own preferences is really shocking. What are our brains too small?

Part of the reason is because what is good for an individual does not necessarily correlate with the needs of a group.

For example, shaving and wearing make-up is time consuming and isn't reciprocated by men (although men are more beauty conscious than they have been in my lifetime). I might know that it isn't a feminist activity, and I'm letting the side down. But if it gives me an individual advantage- more likely to meet an attractive man, more likely to get and keep a good husband and father, more confident in social situations, more likely to be noticed at work etc. then I do it anyway- the benefits easily outweigh the costs.

Then you have the impact of people's other values. So a woman might view an unborn child as a living being, and be more pro-life than I am. Or she might strongly believe in individual choice, and therefore believe that women can choose sex work if they like.

I think ideologies that shoehorn everyone into a group based on one characteristic or value, and expecting everyone in that group to agree with a tick box list of arguments, are failing, because they seem incapable of accounting for the other motivations people have before acting.

Yeah, as I said it’s an Anglo thing. The two are not always linked. It’s only in your socialisation and your Anglo culture that they are linked and you are judging women in a multi-cultural society by an anglo lens.

On the marital name-change thing, isn't this mostly about the paternity of any children (the patronymic in Icelandic and Russian serves the same function)? Its not unfeminist to acknowledge that you can always know a child's mother, but not its father.

"the cultural expectations across the whole place (country, region) isn’t always all woman are socialised to wear make up."

If it's sold in the shops, somebody is wearing it.
For what it's worth my upbringing had pro- and anti-makeup pressures. It was definitely seen as slightly 'tarty', not necessarily what 'good' girls did, yet there was also an understanding that most women do wear it.

Op I agree with you but you're in an impossible argument because women will just say 'it's their choice' to do whatever you disagree with... and where do you go from there?

Choice feminism has a lot to answer for.

The way women continue to be socialised stinks as well!

Not true any more with DNA testing and even birth certificates, and not important either in my opinion as your father is whoever brings you up.
As I've posted it IS also to do with women being considered men's property.

Exactly, your upbringing was not universal, so your impression of makeup being a non feminist choice is informed by your life experience, which is not the same as that of other women.

If you’re Anglo it is, which is a teeny tiny country in a sea of billions of women.

No - are you looking really hard for something to get upset about? My point - and that of any fellow social scientist - was that there is no such thing as an individual preference that isn't influenced by social learning, due to the simple fact that we are social creatures whose likes and dislikes don't simply evolve in isolation from every other human being on the planet. (That obviously includes feminists!) The poster I was responding to claimed to be acting solely on her personal tastes, but I bet when she puts on makeup it won't look like that of a Meiji Era geisha or a woman in a Rubens painting but instead, something arrived at through very here-and now contemporary influences. Call that brainwashing if you like but you'd be making yourself ridiculous.

"you are judging women in a multi-cultural society by an anglo lens."

Sorry that I do not know every culture in the world. How would I be expected to be.

I still don't really get your point as you say that women in your country don't usually change their names anyway so why would you do it?

Most of what you said has been pushed on women and girls by feminists for the past 20 years

I didn’t. I suppose to an Anglo that’s a feminist thing, even though when women were owned by their men it was still the case we had our surname, so how is it feminist here? It can’t be? As said before the two (taking husband surname and being property of husband) are not linked in every culture.

I might know that it isn't a feminist activity, and I'm letting the side down. But if it gives me an individual advantage Not judging you at all because we are all fundamentally selfish to a degree but this is certainly what I feel, that people rush to excuse their selfishness via "choice feminism", which is disingenuous when you could just be honest.

I think ideologies that shoehorn everyone into a group based on one characteristic or value, and expecting everyone in that group to agree with a tick box list of arguments, are failing, because they seem incapable of accounting for the other motivations people have before acting.
Agree, and I wasn't trying to dictate that all women must take the same stand across all the issues I mentioned, more that there is a significant amount of disagreement within each issue that is not abstract but has a real effect on women's lives.

out of curiosity - what branch of feminism is simply believing in equal rights and opportunities, as well as body autonomy?

because if getting angry that some women are kinky and wear heels is what we now call feminism then I'm a bad feminist

"As said before the two (taking husband surname and being property of husband) are not linked in every culture."

But we are talking about cultures where women DO take their husband's names.

And no, actually I don't always think of anyone not taking her husband's name as a feminist act. Where I live women tend not to, but in 95% of cases only give their husband's names to their children and in some cultures, there was never the tradition of changing names.

I think you've got it the wrong way around in the order of what came first. Maybe just 'equality' would be fourth wave feminism and being for women's liberation would be 2nd wave?
Someone else would know better than me.

Pores don't need to breathe. The top layer of the skin is dead. The lower level of the skin gets nourishment from oxygen and nutrients from the blood supply. This is why what you eat and drink is so important for your skin. Some cheap, nasty makeup can clog pores, but most doesn't. There are foundations containing products that actually benefit your skin.

"If you’re Anglo it is, which is a teeny tiny country in a sea of billions of women."

Taking a husband's name is not confined to English-speaking countries, is it?
It's the norm in France for example (even if not necessarily in official business).
Latin American women sometimes use their husband's after their own...

"There are foundations containing products that actually benefit your skin."

Yes, I actually think modern makeup is good for us.
I can see how some feminists would object to the EXPECTATION on women to wear makeup, but not the actual wearing of it.

It's quite different to high heels, which are proven to be harmful to feet and the one I see most often, which is women just being very cold in the pursuit of beauty and sexiness.

I will get flamed for it, but here is something I considered some time ago

I believe that some people (not just women) who are bothered by others "beautifying" themselves are bothered due to their own vanity. They don't want to do those things like going to the gym or putting makeup on, but they also want an even playing field - so that when they compare themselves to others they don't feel "less than"

and i genuinely think that's why some women worry so much about other women wearing makeup and some men get their boxers in a twist over bodybuilders. Otherwise , why would they care so much? Why would they have such strong opinions about other how other people look or what they do privately?

I never once felt any type of way about people who are supper fit - I would love to look like them, but Im lazy so I don't. Should I be bothered that they are hotter than me?

@ImthatBoleyngirl maybe it's all the exercise, factor 50 SPF in the sun and water thats given me good skin then. But I'm still a bit dubious that coating an organ (skin is our largest organ) in chemicals on a regular basis is good for it. Like you said the cheap/affordable stuff isnt great, and thats what most of us start out with on a teenage girl budget. So unless youre exclusively using very expensive high end or Lush makeup that's made from fairly traded organic shea butter and stuff, it's bound to be the UPF of the face.