Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

@WhatWouldJeevesDo I fully admit that my thinking is black and white but purposefully so

I believe that finding "50 shades of grey" (sorry, I had to!) in conversations about women's autonomy vs. women's welfare is what leads to murky waters in cases of rape, abuse and murder.

I think adults making choices that appear risky should have no impact on how their abusers are being prosecuted, and yet it comes up time and time again...while court of public opinion tends to dislike "fallen women" and their abusers can hope for lesser sentence as the result

and when conversations about serious topics such as sexual exploitation, rape and welfare are merged with catty comments about superiority of women with or without make-up it not only diverts attention, but makes the whole argument sound like ego-stroking with zero concern for actual people involved

“Purposefully” ?
You don’t genuinely believe that it’s a strand of feminist argument that has increased the popularity of sadomasochistic strangulation do you?

@WhatWouldJeevesDo no, I believe that it's not very feminist to hand abusers arguments in their defence - they are pretty good at it themselves, there's no need for self-righteous, middle class women explaining to everyone how some women are "hellbent on acting against their own interest" while also throwing everything they find mildly annoying into the same bag as strangulation

side note: can anyone direct me to sources about increased popularity of it? I've seen some talk linking social media presence of OF content creators to apparent increased interest in extreme sexual acts but I can't find anything solid

In modern times, the feminist angle is more the fact that alcohol, like other poisons, affects women’s health more than men’s. It’s also legitimate to look at the particular social impact drunkenness has on women compared with men.
The trend seems to be downwards, though.

Women concerned about women's safety and the safeguarding of children are not the reason women and children come to harm.

It's not groaning feminists who are running teen magazines presenting otherwise more fringe sex as the norm and something they should try, nor are they the ones pushing ideas in PSHE materials.

It's not groaning and moaning women who are pushing incel ideas and materials that present women in dehumanising ways for the benefit of the male class.

But women talking about the harm that comes from this behaviour is totally the problem here?

“side note: can anyone direct me to sources about increased popularity of it? I've seen some talk linking social media presence of OF content creators to apparent increased interest in extreme sexual acts but I can't find anything”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579901/

I should hang my head in shame I guess.

I think you made great points PaperDoIIs.

It doesn't seem to take long on many topics about women and children's safety before the argument becomes: please don't ask too many questions because it's awkward. How about women stop asking awkward questions about women's safety and safeguarding children?

Your interpretation seems odd. No one is saying men are using rough sex as a defence because some women like it.

What we are saying is that the fact some women engage in it (for whatever reason) is transformed into it being mainstream, not a big deal, something so normal,casual and frequent that it becomes a reasonable and common defence.

So is your assumption that all feminists, or the ones on this board/thread are self righteous,middle class women with no comprehension of wider issues .

@PaintedEgg not sure how you can misunderstand, it's thinking it's a normal thing to do which convinces juries to let them off. This can only happen because some porn sites and very loud women on social media promote this as if it is an acceptable kink to have and to allow people to do.

@PaperDoIIs and all I'm saying is that who engages in it should never be allowed as a defence in these cases. Also some people definitely DO blame these women for juries apparently thinking the consent somehow count even though, as it was said multiple times, you cannot consent to actual body harm

The fact that any fetishes are promoted to teenagers is another separate issue - to me sex should not be a part of mainstream media. Maybe I will come across as a prude here, but while I do believe that adults should retain their autonomy, they should also absolutely keep that stuff private.

Also, apologies if I wasn't clear - my comment about some women in this thread because yes, on one hand we are discussing literal strangulation and on the other there was a silly discussion if women should or should not wear make-up

@Boomboom22 I genuinely never once seen someone promote it outside of weird literature

@LolaSmiles It's not about asking questions though, is it?

The fact that things that should be exclusively adult content is seeping into mainstream media is a problem, and the actual risks should be discussed

What I find not so feminist is blaming women for lower sentences for murderers. It should not matter what other people are into when a murder happens, and even if the woman did consent to a risky sexual behaviour it should not be used as an argument for a lesser sentence if her partner ended up killing her.

yet it seems like some of you appear to agree that this is a result of her apparent and unproven consent / fetish and not because the guy was violent and killed her

using parallel to alcohol again. Getting really, really drunk is a very risky behaviour, but it's not the fault of everyone who gets very drunk on the weekends when someone rapes or kills a very drunk woman.

@PaintedEgg I value your contributions. Do you really think "there was a silly discussion if women should or should not wear make-up"?
That wasn't what I experienced. I enjoyed hearing different women talk about why they wear make-up. I learnt loads about their sensory experience and also what it meant to them. And I still think that the "beauty" industry currently disproportionately affects women and is harmful to some and found it useful to discuss who those some women might be. And it was fascinating to try to understand why having these discussions upsets some people and makes them feel they are being judged or told what to do (which you were really open about so thank you.)

@CuriousAlien I apologise, it was a wrong choice of words. What I meant was that compared to discussing strangulation and sex trafficking, make-up is trivial and largely inconsequential. I enjoy these types of discussions myself, but don't think it's the same level of seriousness as the other topics

The one thing I am very hellbent on is treating adults like actual adults - and just because another adult is doing something we disagree with it does not mean they are somehow brainwashed.

The issue of OF content and pornography spilling into general social media is, to me at least, a very different beast. For example I don't believe pornstars should be advertising their content on instagram - and for a while this was really common (and to an extend still is despite increased censorship). Just because I think adults engaging in fetishes is their business, I don't think they should be shoving it into everybody's faces that they do. Paraphilias always existed, masochism amongst them, it just seems like in recent years people just can't get enough of talking about these

PaintedEgg
And yet when women DO talk about these risks and the concerns they're accused of being groaning feminists who cause harm by drawing attention to it.

Women are not responsible for the actions of violent men.

I don't think I've seen any posts that blame women's sexual preferences for the violent acts of men.

I've seen plenty that question how and why so many women are taking part in things that are highly risky and against their own interests, with risk of death, which are (conveniently) very similar to many kinks/fetishes that are increasingly being promoted as more mainstream, and are part of a bigger picture where women are increasingly dehumanised in sexual matters.

The fact that men can get reduced sentences by claiming their victim was happy to risk death in "rough sex gone wrong" is disgusting and it's just accepted in many place. The fact many sexual viewpoints that are dehumanising to women are being pushed into the mainstream and to teens is concerning, and probably partly contributing to the range of emerging sexualities where girls feel they need to have a label to justify why they don't want to take part in "normal" relationships (because so much that's pushed as the norm was previously something for smaller numbers consenting adults in private).

Who benefits from these discussions getting shut down with "but it's her choice/kink shaming/stop moaning about it"? It sure isn't women.

@LolaSmiles personally I agree that the risks should be discussed, just as they are when it comes to casual sex, alcohol consumption and so on.

What I disagree with is telling adults they just don't know any better - they do, they just don't care and probably get off on it.

I also don't believe that consent should matter when the outcome is death or serious injury. In fact, I believe that when conversations do happen it should be strongly highlighted that the side doing the choking is 100% responsible if something goes wrong.

It has been stated time and time again that since inflicting actual body harm is illegal then it should not matter that someone was into it. Some people are into cannibalism (there were few famous cases) and consent of the victim did not matter even though it was proven that it was obtained. I think that focusing so strongly on "women should not have masochistic fetishes" translates strongly into "she asked for it" in a court room

What i am saying is to leave victim and their legally non-valid consent out of sentencing

What I disagree with is telling adults they just don't know any better - they do, they just don't care and probably get off on it.

Generally I tend to agree . However one of the studies I quoted literally showed that some women didn't "know any better". They claimed they were engaging in safe -I disagree that any chocking can be safe tbh-sex practices (and they probably believed it too), but they weren't. The lack of information os deliberate, you can't have something pushed and promoted into mainstream (movies,books, articles in teen magazines,social media platforms like til tok and instagram , even frikking memes (because it's all so hilarious ) ) while also adding disclaimers ,lists of rules and possible dangers.

I'll just leave here as an example.

Btw, in case it isn't clear my issue isn't with women engaging in these practices, except to ask why.

My issue is with it being heavily portrayed ,pushed and promoted as normal,common and not a big deal.

@PaperDoIIs on that I agree completely. It should not be shown as safe. Someone (I think @WhatWouldJeevesDo ) rightly said that it's not informed consent if the victim wasn't really informed.

But this entire thread puts this in line with other not-so-harmful behaviours and asks why women are hellbent of things that harm them - which immediately puts at least some responsibility on women who consented to what they thought was safe.

I also think, and it's only my speculation, that most people don't expect to be choked for real. They may expect play-acting, but not to end up in emergency care.

In the same way that someone who is into some spanking probably would not expect to end up battered to near death because their partner got too carried away.

The problem is that some men deliberately abuse their partners and for those men consent of lack of thereof does not matter. There were multiple posts from women who were blackmailed, guilt-tripped or otherwise coerced into sexual activities they did not want by their partners. Regular sex is very normal and yet it becomes abusive when it happens because someone's husband shouted, moaned and worn his wife down to have sex with him. In the meantime I fully believe that there are couples who do engage in some sort BDSM and both sides take care to not harm each other.

The lack of information os deliberate, you can't have something pushed and promoted into mainstream (movies,books, articles in teen magazines,social media platforms like til tok and instagram , even frikking memes (because it's all so hilarious ) ) while also adding disclaimers ,lists of rules and possible dangers.
That's how I feel about it. What consenting adults do in private is up to them within the law as long as there's free and enthusiastic informed consent. There is a reason sensible adults in many kink communities talk about acts being safe, sane and consensual, have safe words etc.

When material is pushed into the mainstream alongside the other ideologies where women are dehumanised, messages to teens about sexuality talk about consent on one hand and whilst also pushing boundaries like it's normal, somehow people are surprised that there's a ripple effect in how women and girls are viewed.

It's a deliberate erosion of boundaries and deliberate attempt to shift the overton window, so teens are groomed, certain sexual outlooks are presented as standard, then when boundaries are crossed and harm is caused there's a so called defence that the victim was willing and up for it really, it just went too far.

@LolaSmiles I think the reason behind "popularising" these fetishes (and other weird movements like the trad wife community) by women is simply greed.

Some women make money off of projecting that fantasy of being submissive to men.

So I think the problem are not people who do stuff in private and keep it private, the problem are people who push it into mainstream, and the way I see it there are two main drivers for people to try and normalise their fetishes to wider audience: they either get off of it or they make money off of it.

so the question would be not why they do stuff that is harmful to them, but why they willingly promote stuff that is harmful to women, and especially young ones

PaintedEgg
I'd agree with you there. What adults do in private with appropriate consent is up to them and not the central problem. On its own I'd be less interested in the "why" people enjoy certain things, though it could be an interesting discussion. For me that falls into the live and let live category.

What's going on where previously niche expressions of adult sexuality have become pushed into the mainstream, along with very problematic and dehumanising ideas of women and girls, is a big problem.

In the context of this push to the mainstream that I became very interested in the "why" because choices are made in a vacuum and I do question how and why there's this push to normalise previously fringe interests. I don't believe it's in the interests of women as a class.

I’m glad you have backed down on your claim that feminists have normalised sexual strangulation @PaintedEgg. I hope @MercanDede will too.
I think you are right that greed and lust - to paraphrase - lead people to try to normalise their weird activities, but sometimes they may just want to convince themselves that they aren’t doing anything wrong or mad. That is a problem with the World Wide Web. People continents apart with weird and dangerous ideas can meet and encourage each other.
Louise Perry also has an interesting chapter on choking in her book ‘The Case against the Sexual Revolution’. I’ve just been looking at it.
I don’t think it was me who talked about uninformed consent.

@WhatWouldJeevesDo I claimed that continuously talking about something normalises it and in a sense I still think that's the case

if you talk about risks then it's a conversation about safeguarding, safety and potential for abuse

if you ask "why do women like this fetish" you will get bunch of responses that will answer that question

if you then claim that you know better than these women what is good for them - you will get defensive responses because what on earth are we doing poking our noses into other people's sex lives in this way.

However, when kinky sex makes it way into "regular" media with no content warning - then it is a massive issue

@LolaSmiles I think we can partly blame 50 Shades, it was such a successful cash cow that it sprang almost a trend that is now resulting in explicit sex scenes shoved everywhere - my personal pet peeve are sex scenes, often depicting brutal rapes in details, included in books, movies and TV shows. They never serve the plot