Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

I love it that we're now sharing make up and beauty tips

I think I broadly agree with what you say. However, I'm not sure the brand of feminism that isn't choice feminism is that different or any less disingenuous.

Again, using myself as an example I can enthusiastically nod along when Mary Harrington says that casual sex is bad for women. This is partly because I believe it has been a better deal for men, but if I'm completely honest it's also because casual sex doesn't appeal now I'm married, and even if it did my ardour would rapidly cool when looking at most of the men in my social circle/ workplace. So casual sex is a threat to me rather than an opportunity- my husband might sleep with another woman, or leave me for one, thereby destroying the life I've built.

If I was a young attractive woman, and despite the threats if definitely carries, increased access to casual sex might be much more of a opportunity than a threat- I like sex for a start, but it has also given young women access to a wider dating pool, thereby increasing their chances of finding the right husband.

This doesn't mean that all actions are feminist because a woman does them, and I don't think I'm necessarily a choice feminist. But as I get older I find feminism as an overarching 'this is what is good for all women at all times' idea less convincing regardless of it's flavour.

Interesting thread, thanks OP.

I have been similarly baffled in the past. These days I just think it's impossible to understand the meaning another person ascribes to an activity without asking them. Then again I think there are also plenty of women not interested in questioning the story they tell themselves about why they wear makeup just to take one of your examples.

Some possible meanings for wearing make-up...

• someone enjoys decorating their face
• someone is a clown
• someone feels forced to wear makeup so as not to be socially shamed for not conforming to aesthetic standards
• someone wants to cover up spots
• someone feels their face is so ugly they have to disguise it
• someone feels that make up makes them more attractive either to potential mates or just pleasant to look at in general or perhaps just for themself (and I completely agree with the previous poster talking about how preferences form in context... An aesthetic choice is never going to arise in a vacuum)

It makes sense that feminism would look at how women and men are differently affected by this. It's a pity when people react as if this is somehow "spoiling fun".

Personally I don't like the feeling of make up on my face and can't be bothered to spend time applying it when there are other activities that seem more beneficial to me. I think I was also lucky to have lots of women in my family who didn't wear make up and to grow up in a time and place less bombarded with images.

I've been a feminist academic for getting on for two decades. I've never yet come across any brand or school of feminism known as 'choice feminism'.

Feminism has never been about assuring choice. Choice, if anything, has come about as a consequence of far more fundamental battles: some of which were as deadly serious as matters of life and death. This has been some of the most bitterly contested political ground fought over the past century. Reducing that to mere choice seems to me to negate or ignore those issues.

It's easy to take the rights we have now for granted, whilst quickly forgetting the fights, sacrifices and struggles women have been through in order to secure them. 'Feminism' isn't about, for example, choosing what you call yourself, or of arguing the toss in defence of your personal decision. What individuals do or don't do ultimately won't matter much. What is beneficial is to consider (and challenge) the conditions under which these choices are made.

The make-up example is another good point. We don't arrive at these preferences in a vacuum.

Well said.

Evidently there's nothing more feminist than talking down to women you view as lesser for enjoying things that you don't or having differing opinions 🙄

Funny how a feminism board can produce some of the most ridiculous examples of so-called 'feminists' I've ever come across.

You do understand that criticising (by which I mean questioning and examining) the societal standards that tell women that heels are 'good' or 'feminine' is not the same as 'getting angry' or telling other women want to do?

I think makeup makes my skin look worse

I think the thing I can't get over is that women are being strangled by men and claiming they enjoy it. The fact they can't imagine how it can go wrong is just beyond me.

well, I gave this thread a benefit of a doubt of assuming that all women are not mind-controlled idiots and that they know they like heels because of association with femininity (or because legs looks more shapely in them).

Personally I don't understand this assault on vanity. it is also a bit sad we, as a society, are yet to grow out of the "im not like the other girls, pink is bad" mentality

I would say that's definitely true about plastic surgery and to a lesser extent tweakments. If many 50 year olds start to look smooth and shiny, those people who don't do anything to their face will look older in comparison. It's a sort of unfair competition, but then life itself is unfair.

Yes OP we all know you're very special and not like the other girls. Well done. 👏🏻

Exactly. Barbaric thoughts.

But again, you're projecting/assuming intentions that just aren't there. This seems to be defensiveness. Why describe it as an 'assault'? It's not personal. Nobody on here can see each other.

it is only a competition if you make it a competition - I don't think anyone but us cares about how old or good we look

bottom line is, the worst case scenario is that others will think I'm ugly if I don't put make-up on or dress "nicely". It's up to me how bothered I am by being ugly to some guy (or more likely - a woman) on street

Some women don't care about what is better for women as a while or what is harmful to them as a group etc.

It's like... The same way you can present however many arguments about why eating meat is worse for you and the planet and animals etc, if someone wants to eat meat because they like it then some are just selfish, me included.

Similarly, you can present irrefutable proof that shaving is harmful to women, but if I want to shave and like being shaven, why wouldn't I?

the thread literally talks about things we may do for vanity as harmful

Absolutely this.
It is quite saddening that people are responding to this mildly expressed and well-thought-out post with defensiveness and hostility (words like 'brainwashing' and 'barbaric' are being used).
It's really hard to have a meaningful and measured conversation about this stuff. Which I think indicates just how engrained social norms and pressures are.

Right. Well, the feminist argument for that would usually be the suggestion that any woman needs to augment or alter her appearance to look 'better' is a fallacy. Beauty ideals are qualitative, subjective ideas imposed on society. That the issue is the judgement of a woman as 'better' or 'lesser' or 'ugly' or 'beautiful' is the problem.

So it is harmful to women to feel they have to or should or will be better off if they measure up to arbitary standards.

There is no 'ideal'. There is no 'right' way to look.

many women hold differing opinions to you, not because they are all lower down on the hierarchy of enlightenment and emancipation, but because they have considered the issues at hand and have arrived at a different conclusion.”

Well said!
We're all individuals, with OUR OWN minds, and its fucking insulting to be patronised, insinuating don't know what we want and have been groomed by the patriarchy (give me strength)
I never wear make up, or heels, but if others like that then that's their choice.

Everyone is affected by society, we live in society.

It's not a 'bad' thing to be affected by societal ideals.

There is no need to feel insulted or patronised by women discussing abstract ideas. None at all.

" I don't think anyone but us cares about how old or good we look"

Well that's obviousy not true!

One thing that I find interesting is how you sometimes hear of parents who are vehemently against their sons wearing a dress or painting their nails or having long hair, but are fine with their daughters wearing "boy" clothes and being a tomboy. As if anything deemed feminine is lesser than that we seem masculine. Feels like a lot of feminists do actually agree with this, that to be masculine is the ideal.

@PaintedEgg I think this is very accurate tbh

OPs post is like something I would have written a decade ago. It took me a while to recognise that the women I was criticising were happy and empowered in there decisions and that I was simply envious from my own insecurities.

OP I get it, though my list would be different.

Worth remembering that men did wear high heels and make up, and seriously uncomfortable clothes, in days gone by.

that was the same social pressure that led me to make up in my 40s. I just looked so different to my peers in meetings etc.

@ArabellaScott in which case the problem is whether or not these women do actually feel like they need to do it and would leaving the house without makeup would genuinely affect their self-esteem, while in reality world is filled with less then perfect people

i would also argue that being ugly should not be equated with being "lesser than" and its the oversubscription of value to our appearance that is the key issue

finally - if someone feels bad about themselves because they think they're ugly then other people people not wearing makeup is not going to help as there always be people who were just born beautiful