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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

682 replies

thedankness · 22/12/2023 15:39

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

OP posts:
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GrumpyPanda · 22/12/2023 17:42

Psychoticbreak · 22/12/2023 16:27

Time and again this topic comes up and confuses me. I LIKE to wear heels, I LIKE to wear makeup, I LIKE to look the way I look. It is not society that has made me want to look this way I just like to look good to me on the outside knowing I am also good on the inside. It is an insult to be told otherwise and it is getting relentlessly boring as a topic too. If you chose not to do anything with your hair or face or body then fine but why judge people who do? We are not walking vacuous idiots we just fancy being more like a butterfly than a moth.

You might want to google a thing or two about preference formation. It's entirely possible to have different views about the social value of makeup but it's completely bonkers to assert that any individual's likes or dislikes are what they are just because "they feel good to me." Whether or not they feel good to you is ALWAYS within a context of learned behaviours and shared perceptions unless you trained in economics because that's just the dipshit naive "methodological individualism" inherent in the discipline.

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:43

OnionRings82 · 22/12/2023 17:36

I changed my name after marriage because I love my husband and dreamt of having his name, and secondly, because I didn't want to have a different name to my children. Sorry if this doesn't fit in with whatever agenda you have.

OP's "agenda" being posting in a feminist thread!

Does your husband not love you then? And was it not possible for the children to have your name?

You can do what you want, but don't pretend it's a feminist choice.

Mumoftwo1312 · 22/12/2023 17:43

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 17:37

I love that the radical feminists on here believe that women should not be given a right to choose our work, our sex practices, our makeup and even our shoes because men may find those things attractive. so in order for our lives to not be ruled by men we should be denied body autonomy because of...men

I'd get dizzy and throw up if I was to come up with this mental gymnastics routine

I brought up make up. I never said that women "should not be able to choose make up". I said it's sad that so many women feel their faces are inadequate without it, while very few men do.

I know lots and lots of women who don't feel they look good enough without it.

It is sad. I stand by that. Our naked faces are every bit as adequate as men's, in my opinion.

I'm not telling them not to wear it. In my anecdote, it was women telling me to wear it, or at least expressing genuine shock that I wasn't going to

Original poster
thedankness · 22/12/2023 17:43

I haven’t seen any denial of these kinds of things existing, I question the OP’s premise that the feminist choice is always the exact opposite of what society traditionally expects for women in everything. Some social pressures are actually in the interest of women, being married before having children by a man is one convention that offers significant financial protection to women and positively affects their ability to live and raise those children if the man deserts her.

I agree with you about marriage before children providing better financial protection in most cases. I didn't make a list of points just because they were the opposite to current standards or tradition; I have actually thought about the issues.

OP posts:
Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:44

Precipice · 22/12/2023 17:38

Did your husband not love you and dream of having your name? Why couldn't your children have had your name?

Why do you think it's reasonable to expect women to change and lose and shed their identities, while something so basic as their own name is something men get to have all their lives?

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Sorry, totally cross-posted with you.

Not sure if Onion's post was even serious.

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:46

Precipice · 22/12/2023 17:37

There are grooming expectations for men that do not apply to women. Like what? Men are expected to shave their lower face or to groom their facial hair into acceptable moustache/beard styles, but women are expected to remove chin hairs.

Chin hairs are a sign of ageing in most women (as in those tha5 don’t have PCOS). In a similar vein, aging men are expected to remove ear hair and bushy eyebrow hair.

I was thinking of short haircuts as well as shaving and of course clear skin with no makeup to conceal it.

MidnightMeltdown · 22/12/2023 17:48

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:41

"In my experience, it's usually men who criticise women for wearing makeup, which to me, has always felt very misogynistic. It's as though only masculine interests are acceptable."

I think it's worse than that. It's the idea that women must be beautiful, but naturally beautiful. It's the same as men fancying slim women, but not liking having to deal with a woman being on a diet. It's supposed to be effortless.

More recently too there have been complaints by men about women using makeup to 'catfish' ie to pretend to be something they're not.

Yes, this is true. Also, men complain that they 'don't know what women look like' if they wear makeup. Even if they are not dating, or have no interest in dating the women in question.

It's as though they think that they have some sort of entitlement to see all of a women.

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:48

GrumpyPanda · 22/12/2023 17:42

You might want to google a thing or two about preference formation. It's entirely possible to have different views about the social value of makeup but it's completely bonkers to assert that any individual's likes or dislikes are what they are just because "they feel good to me." Whether or not they feel good to you is ALWAYS within a context of learned behaviours and shared perceptions unless you trained in economics because that's just the dipshit naive "methodological individualism" inherent in the discipline.

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So women who like makeup are just brainwashed and not enlightened? They can’t possibly truly like it of their own choice?

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:48

"In a similar vein, aging men are expected to remove ear hair and bushy eyebrow hair."

If they're in the public eye, yes. Ordinary men, I'm not so sure. I'm sure we can all think of men who have ear hair, bushy eyebrows or long nostril hair.

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:49

"It's as though they think that they have some sort of entitlement to see all of a women."

I think this is a pretty recent thing with online dating, filters and the like.

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:49

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:43

OP's "agenda" being posting in a feminist thread!

Does your husband not love you then? And was it not possible for the children to have your name?

You can do what you want, but don't pretend it's a feminist choice.

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Why is the “feminist choice” the choice that you think is feminist? Have you thought about that? That feminism was about empowering women to make their own choices, not choices dictated to them by another woman? We get enough of that from our mothers!

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 17:49

@Mumoftwo1312 so maybe it's not men who set those standards?

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:50

"So women who like makeup are just brainwashed and not enlightened? They can’t possibly truly like it of their own choice?"

No woman is an island. We are all part of society.

I wear makeup, but I'm not going to pretend I came to like it all by myself, independently of the society I live in.

Mumoftwo1312 · 22/12/2023 17:51

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 17:49

@Mumoftwo1312 so maybe it's not men who set those standards?

I never said they did. (Neither did op.) Very odd you keep attributing opinions to me that I haven't expressed.

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:51

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:48

"In a similar vein, aging men are expected to remove ear hair and bushy eyebrow hair."

If they're in the public eye, yes. Ordinary men, I'm not so sure. I'm sure we can all think of men who have ear hair, bushy eyebrows or long nostril hair.

Just like we can all think of women who don’t pluck their chin hairs. Nonconforming individuals always exist, even if a ruling coven of women dictate all women should not pluck their chin hairs, there will be nonconforming women who choose to.

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 17:52

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:48

"In a similar vein, aging men are expected to remove ear hair and bushy eyebrow hair."

If they're in the public eye, yes. Ordinary men, I'm not so sure. I'm sure we can all think of men who have ear hair, bushy eyebrows or long nostril hair.

and I can think of plenty of women who don't shave or otherwise remove hair from their bodies...so?

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:52

"Why is the “feminist choice” the choice that you think is feminist? "

Well, it's not the one that was meant to show you were part of your husband's property, that's for sure.

Of course, you can do what you want, it's not about me or anyone else telling you what do, but don't be in denial about it.

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:53

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:50

"So women who like makeup are just brainwashed and not enlightened? They can’t possibly truly like it of their own choice?"

No woman is an island. We are all part of society.

I wear makeup, but I'm not going to pretend I came to like it all by myself, independently of the society I live in.

Ok, so you feel you are brainwashed by society to like makeup. This doesn’t mean your feelings hold true for all women though. Not all women will have experienced the same girlhood/socialisation as you did.

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:54

"Just like we can all think of women who don’t pluck their chin hairs."

I don't know any women who walk around with chin hairs.

But that's irrelevant to my point, which was that I don't agree that ageing men, who are not in the public eye, are expected to deal with their eyebrows, etc.

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 17:54

@Mumoftwo1312 so basically some women expect other women to put on makeup while some other women get mad that women put on makeup

so would it not be within my own interest to ignore both groups and go with my own preferences?

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:56

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:52

"Why is the “feminist choice” the choice that you think is feminist? "

Well, it's not the one that was meant to show you were part of your husband's property, that's for sure.

Of course, you can do what you want, it's not about me or anyone else telling you what do, but don't be in denial about it.

Sorry what? Is this the Anglo take the husband’s surname thing? That is actually not due to being considered your husbands property. I know this because in my culture, women kept their surname but were still their husbands property. The taking your husbands surname is more about identity in a patrilineal society than ownership.

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:56

"Not all women will have experienced the same girlhood/socialisation as you did."

They will have if they live in a place where women wear makeup!

I haven't been brainwashed. Influenced is maybe a better word.

Are you really claiming you came up with the idea of makeup all by yourself? It was lucky it was already sold in the shops, wasn't it?

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 17:56

@Gwenhwyfar c'moooon, i don't believe this for a second, plenty of women don't wear makeup, trim their eyebrows or pluck their chin hair (especially older ones who run out of f-s to give).

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:56

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 17:54

"Just like we can all think of women who don’t pluck their chin hairs."

I don't know any women who walk around with chin hairs.

But that's irrelevant to my point, which was that I don't agree that ageing men, who are not in the public eye, are expected to deal with their eyebrows, etc.

Righto, that’s like saying only women in the public eye are expected to wear makeup.

Precipice · 22/12/2023 17:58

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:53

Ok, so you feel you are brainwashed by society to like makeup. This doesn’t mean your feelings hold true for all women though. Not all women will have experienced the same girlhood/socialisation as you did.

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Why do you think that so many women just happen to like makeup and just happen to feel insecure about going out into the world with just their normal face, but so few men just happen to like makeup and just happen to feel that they can't go out to the shop without painting their face up?