Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

You might be interested to read up on the coining of the phrase “Stockholm Syndrome”, because it’s a really shocking and misogynist story.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stockholm-syndrome-meaning-bank-robbery-b2399531.html

We are sold a vision of ‘feminity’ and ‘glamour’ from such an early stage that for many of us it becomes hard-wired into our identity.
And, as @Bluecat7 says, non-conformity to this vision, brings negative consequences - as witness all the older women who completely mutilate their faces because otherwise they will lose ‘relevance’.

That's an interesting point.

Oh @Psychoticbreak I hear you but have you ever thought why you feel good with smooth pits, high heels, and a full face of slap? Or why British women want smooth pits but German ones don’t?

I’d add that the topic title here reads as a variation of ‘women are their own worst enemies’ (sad shake of the head) another sexist trope.

You are talking down to other women as though they are children.

I think there’s nothing wrong with considering the issues you have mentioned and the various perspectives on these.

But you are not considering the possibility that many women hold differing opinions to you, not because they are all lower down on the hierarchy of enlightenment and emancipation, but because they have considered the issues at hand and have arrived at a different conclusion.

I don’t even disagree on some of the topics you’ve mentioned (which are disparate), but I do accept that there is more than one valid perspective.

You are not actually engaging in a discussion of these issues here as for you it is already a foregone conclusion that you are right, and the question is just what is wrong with women.

Is there a significant difference between self-destruction and self-erasure, @ArabellaScott ?

Who ever knew that The Most Correct Woman Who Ever Lived would come to post on MN.

OP, because we live in a patriarchy, sadly its actually in our best interests (financially and socially) to fit in with our cultures beauty standards as much as possible. There was an article (I think guardian) about why it's sadly financially beneficial for women (not men) to be slim.

So arguably women are not acting against their best interests by conforming

That said, I'm all for no make up and comfy shoes myself.

Disagreeing with someone isn't hate

I think it cuts both ways. Men can be too bland but too scared to do anything about it or refuse to suffer any pain to get the look they want.

Women can be too willing to develop very high pain thresholds to get the effect they want.

One set need to give more value to the effect they want to achieve and the other needs to consider giving long term effects more weight.

Whatever people choose to do if they have considered all things, especially as adults... well it is up to them.

But yes, women do seem rather prone to providing justification for ignoring long term effects... especially when applying the judgement to others! I mean who am I to tell the next lady not to put on the make up and heels if that gives her the confidence to go for the next big jump in her career. Surely that's also in her long term interests?

I also believe some things should not be expected in sex especially choking. And I'll add anal to that list.

This thread is not just about beauty practices.

But on that topic I can appreciate the artistry of makeup and fashion. I love watching fashion TV shows like Project Runway. I don't judge women for wearing makeup. But when I look at it though a feminist lens I don't think it is good for women and I can hold those thoughts simultaneously.

I don't get the idea that society hasn't influenced your fashion, beauty or grooming choices. If you lived before the age of mirrors or photography you wouldn't even know what you looked like, much less place significant emphasis on it. What if makeup and nail varnish didn't even exist? Would you be the person to invent those things? If you can't leave the house with unshaven legs for fear of self-consciousness or maybe looks or comments, then it's not a choice unaffected by the society in which we live. And crucially there's a larger societal force affecting women's looks than men's.

🤣🤣🤣

It is not easy to be a non-conforming girl and woman, particularly if you don't have family support or wider support. And then, as a PP has said it is not really in your own interests potentially to do so. I think that's worse when you are in your teens, 20s and 30s and if you are heterosexual. The expectation is that you want to be attractive to men, in order to be in a relationship.

Why? Constant paternalistic, misogynistic messages about womens place in the world. Identification with the aggressor as a psychological defense mechanism.

Im not British but no never thought of it I just think this is how I like to feel and look for me. I dont generally care how others look.

Bloody hell I bet you're a barrel of laughs at parties, unless of course you think women shouldn't attend parties.
Don't want em dressing up and having fun do we?
Bloody hell they might even meet and talk to a man!! Hell!!

I changed my name when I got married - can’t get worked up about it. 🤷‍♀️ I didn’t like my maiden name, dh and I discussed going for a 3rd name that we both liked it but decided just to stick with is.

Does that make me not a feminist? 😳

I dont watch fashion tv nor beauty tv I just look in the mirror, apply makeup and dress how i like to dress it just comes natural to me even though I work from home alone so it is not for anyone else I am doing this. Yes currently I am makeup free, hair in a hun bun and wearing a hoodie with no makeup and I feel great this way too but when i get up tomorrow I have a place to be and will apply what others perceive to be my outdoor sheild but it is not. I like to enhance what I already have and that should be celebrated as much as not doing any enhancements at all. Once we each love ourselves why should another person care what guise of ourselves we love?

Of course not. But that doesn't mean every action you take or thought you think is a feminist one as a result.

I agree with @Fynetanksfather. I think that telling other women how to woman because you think certain things are bad for us is just as bad as patriarchy. I did not become a feminist to put certain matriarchs in power over me or all women. I fit most of your tick boxes, but I have female friends and relatives that do not because that is how they choose to live and I will defend that to the end.

In addition, men do subjugate themselves to societal expectations only in different ways because social pressures are sex based. How else do you think it’s men that are dying in Ukraine while the women and children get to flee to safety? While society encourages women to be decorative, it also encourages men to risk their lives defending women and children.

“many women hold differing opinions to you, not because they are all lower down on the hierarchy of enlightenment and emancipation, but because they have considered the issues at hand and have arrived at a different conclusion.”

👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

There needs to be some acknowledgement of actions of individual women Vs systemic issues in my opinion.

For example I'm concerned about the big picture of male gaze beauty on women and the pornification of female beauty, but couldn't get too excited that Sandra likes to wear a bit of bronzer in the winter, Emily is a dopamine dresser and likes bright eye make up and Cheryl is still rocking her goth eyeliner from her 20s.

It's not the make up that's the problem, it's a certain type of messaging that's the problem to me.

Edit to add: Most of us will make decisions that are right for us in a system that isn't favourable for women as a class. If we have sense we'll be aware of this.
Where I struggle with liberal feminism is they seem keen to promote the idea that any decision made by a woman is feminist.

It's a bit bizarre to deny that there is a beauty industry and societal expectations of grooming wrt to women that isn't expected of men. And for a discussion of that to be a topic for feminism.

Same goes for the other areas the OP raised.