Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

[thedankness]

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women.

I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves?

Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it?

This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

“If you lived before the age of mirrors or photography you wouldn't even know what you looked like, much less place significant emphasis on it. What if makeup and nail varnish didn't even exist?”

That would be a Stone Age.

I was, broadly, with you OP until you mentioned bridesmaids and your whole post collapsed into satire.

There are grooming expectations for men that do not apply to women.

I haven’t seen any denial of these kinds of things existing, I question the OP’s premise that the feminist choice is always the exact opposite of what society traditionally expects for women in everything. Some social pressures are actually in the interest of women, being married before having children by a man is one convention that offers significant financial protection to women and positively affects their ability to live and raise those children if the man deserts her.

Absolutely.

Beauty standards/ideals presented as if they exist in a vacuum unrelated to social trends/culture is a bit odd to read on a feminist forum.

'Looking good' means different things according to different times and places, a more accurate description would be 'conforming to current societal conventions and messaging.'

We surely haven't unlearned all of the lessons of 2nd wave feminism so quickly?!

Sure, sure – although OP hasn’t initiated a discussion of that here. She’s already arrived at her own conclusion and just wants to know why other women who don’t agree hate themselves so much.

That is kind of how she’s framed the OP.

I agree that there is plenty of interesting stuff to discuss about expectations of women wrt beauty and with reference to feminist perspectives.

who am I to tell the next lady not to put on the make up and heels if that gives her the confidence to go for the next big jump in her career. Surely that's also in her long term interests?
I do take your point, but there's stuff to unpack there about why this hypothetical woman, with valuable professional experience and skills, would want/need/seek confidence in make-up and heels. Especially when a man generally wouldn't.

I think we do very little that is not a product of or influenced by wider society, and society's messages to women have long been, to say the least, questionable. Make-up makes your eyes look bigger, lips look plumper, skin look younger (which all basically comes down to looking more fertile/sexually desirable) and heels have been considered desirable at least partly because they make legs look longer and slimmer; again, making women more sexually desirable.

These are broad brushstrokes, I know, but there is truth in them.

I was a second wave feminist and here is something I learned:

Grown women do not, as a rule, take kindly to other people telling them they know what's best for them, not even by people who believe they have presented all the best arguments.

You're welcome.

"I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women."

Many gay men do the vanity things.
Basically there's a difference between wanting to attract men and wanting to attract women.

High heels were originally for men. I wouldn't wear them, but I understand why other women want to do certain things to be attractive to men or to fit in.

I shave legs and armpits. I don't claim it's a feminist act, but I'm part of society.

you're one of them people who walks up to smokers to tell them that smoking is bad for their health, aren't you?

professional men are under similar pressure to maintain a youthful appearance, although it is by masculine standards. Clean shaven if older, dye hair if greying, fight hair loss if going bald, not get obese, the right clothing, the right shoes, right watch, right accessories, teeth whitening, etc.

More attractive men and women are usually more successful in careers. It’s not just women.

I think the overall pressure is ageism- that men and women are under pressure to not look old and ready to be retired. Our society does worship youth, and the energy and vitality that goes with it.

She didn't, that was me. For me, having female companions is not unfeminist, just like I appreciate having female midwives. As I mentioned, I'm not of the pro choice, "inclusive" school of feminism. I'm of the radical, pro-women school, where women help and protect each other to the exclusion of men.

That's why I'd never have wanted a male bridesmaid or male midwife.

I did accept that many on mn would disagree. I'm happy to take my share of the op's thrashing

Sure, sure – although OP hasn’t initiated a discussion of that here. She’s already arrived at her own conclusion and just wants to know why other women who don’t agree hate themselves so much.

I understood that she was raising the slightly more meta question of why women disagree with each other about whether certain cultural norms constitute subjugation, but men do not. The answer may be that there are not many gender norms that are enforced to the detriment of men (that they do the fighting is one). Also the position of women is constantly shifting because the patriarchy is fighting back all the time, so that a norm which is oppressive in one era may be less so in another.

My sil has progressive MS yet voted for Trump. And she will again if she gets the chance. To me this is a woman voting against herself. Nothing to do with makeup.

If that's the German cannibalism case you're talking about, then yes, you've got the facts about right. I expect it would be the same in most legal systems.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/armin-meiwes

I don't get the hate for makeup. I love makeup. I don't feel like I HAVE to wear it, but generally, when people look good, then they tend to feel good.

When I wear I nice lipstick, it lifts my face in the similar way that wearing a top in a colour that really suits you does.

Is makeup any different to buying a nice top? Or a man working for a six pack at the gym? Or getting a nice haircut?

To me makeup is fun and I enjoy experimenting with my look.

In my experience, it's usually men who criticise women for wearing makeup, which to me, has always felt very misogynistic. It's as though only masculine interests are acceptable. Anything feminine (makeup, dresses, or feminine colours etc) are to be looked down on

I changed my name after marriage because I love my husband and dreamt of having his name, and secondly, because I didn't want to have a different name to my children. Sorry if this doesn't fit in with whatever agenda you have.

I would argue that the parameters for women are stricter and narrower. I've worked in lots of places where the higher-up successful men don't fit these descriptions. Ageism is many times more visible towards women than towards men IME and IMO.

There are grooming expectations for men that do not apply to women. Like what? Men are expected to shave their lower face or to groom their facial hair into acceptable moustache/beard styles, but women are expected to remove chin hairs.

It's interesting that most of points so far have discussed the thin end of the wedge. Does that mean there's more agreement about the more significant issues mentioned in the OP? Or that it's easier to come down on me about the small stuff?

I wanted to discuss the factors that promote a culture of female subjugation - particularly how it is unrecognised/denied. This is what I see but some people disagree that there is such a phenomenon.

We all believe what we believe because we think our rationale is stronger than another's or because we have different values and priorities. Of course I acknowledge that some women come to different conclusions and said it in the OP.

I love that the radical feminists on here believe that women should not be given a right to choose our work, our sex practices, our makeup and even our shoes because men may find those things attractive. so in order for our lives to not be ruled by men we should be denied body autonomy because of...men

I'd get dizzy and throw up if I was to come up with this mental gymnastics routine

Did your husband not love you and dream of having your name? Why couldn't your children have had your name?

Why do you think it's reasonable to expect women to change and lose and shed their identities, while something so basic as their own name is something men get to have all their lives?

The senior men in all the companies I have everworked for do not conform to that list of expectations for men. Not in the slightest. The (few) senior women? No way would they be able to dress/present to the same level and not have to deal with it as an issue.

@thedankness I don't think it matters whether you mention sex work or wearing elevated footwear. The point is that you think women should not be doing things they want because you believe these are based on patriarchal values

sure modern shaving is a product of capitalistic greed, but when people were removing their pubes back in medieval times they were unlikely to be doing it for show. it was a personal preference

I would argue it’s inter-sectionalism of race and class giving certain men more leeway. White, upper class men are under less pressure to conform.

"In my experience, it's usually men who criticise women for wearing makeup, which to me, has always felt very misogynistic. It's as though only masculine interests are acceptable."

I think it's worse than that. It's the idea that women must be beautiful, but naturally beautiful. It's the same as men fancying slim women, but not liking having to deal with a woman being on a diet. It's supposed to be effortless.

More recently too there have been complaints by men about women using makeup to 'catfish' ie to pretend to be something they're not.