Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

Let's not derail this thread is of real importance.
@AdamRyan you have numerous other threads to discuss that on.

I was pleased to see more openness on Instagram especially today and reposting of statements regarding the sexual violence of 7/10 by different insta personalities that are well thought of.

Slowly eyes are opening....

I'm trying to get to the logic of what "eradicate hamas" looks like in practice. But I understand this isn't the thread for it, I was responding to a previous point.

I listened to a commentator yesterday talking about the difficulties in prosecuting or dealing with rape as a weapon of war. I think they said there had been 7 prosecutions in Bosnia and 33 in Rwanda.

My perspective as a feminist is that rape is abhorrent, rape as a weapon is abhorrent and seems to be standard in war. I don't really understand why it's surprising Hamas would rape victims as well as murder them in a war? I think there's been little commentary because rape in general is accepted and there are so many other atrocities happening, rather than because the rape of Jewish women is somehow tolerated when it wouldn't be for other nationalities

There are reports that both women and men were raped.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israeli-police-have-evidence-hamas-raped-men-during-october-7-attack-activists-claim-bkpfvgqz

It usually isn’t the aim of war, though. When armies occupy territory the women there are at risk. Perhaps kidnapping isn’t unusual, though armies would probably struggle to carry women with them.

This was the purpose of the incursion. Not to claim territory but to terrorise, kill, maim, rape and carry off hostages.

That’s a bit more than the usual byproduct of war.

Again, I struggle to get past the fact that this was organised deliberate policy. Not a few men going rogue, not an expression of excessive testosterone or drug use- the purpose of the action. That is beyond words.

@Decemberdaily the denial????? That article is awful.
How can Hamas deny when captured members have said they went out to rape?

I think its usually a deliberate policy in war unfortunately.
^Rape is often used in ethnic conflicts as a way for attackers to perpetuate their social control and redraw ethnic boundaries.....Women are seen as the reproducers and carers of the community.... if one group wants to control another they often do it by impregnating women of the other community because they see it as a way of destroying the opposing community."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4078677.stm

@stomachameleon 🤷‍♀️ I’d have said no one would believe their denials but…

This is more recent but before 7/10

https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/devastating-use-sexual-violence-weapon-war

To be clear, I'm not suggesting what Hamas did is in any way ok. But trying to answer the point about why feminist groups may not have picked up on it.

Sisters Uncut in particular I imagine have a lot of experience of this as rape has been used as a weapon in Eritrea/Ethopia

It still reads to me as an addition to the conflict waged, AdamRyan. I’m not really arguing as you obviously know more about it than me, but the Ukrainian rapes are part of Russia invading Ukraine over territory.

The Haitian gangs use women brutally. The boko haram attacks seem more similar, though impregnating for a next generation seems part of it.

This incursion was solely about terrorising people. Mutilations, rapes, and killing of men women and children as the sole purpose of the event. Followed by a retreat carrying hostages with them.

@AdamRyan does that excuse saying nothing? Especially charities such as sisters uncut?

I think saying nothing could be perceived as neutral, especially from charities/feminist groups that have very limited ability to do anything to support the victims or influence Hamas.

In these circumstances, I worry that saying something is essentially becoming virtue signalling, as people/groups are expected to toe a line or face censure for "wrongthink". I'm not a fan of virtue signalling.

Women are always being put under greater pressure to show they care. Why isn't the pressure on media outlets for nortreporting this? Or on people who actually can influence things yo say or do something? Why on feminists?

I feel like it's being used by right wing media to undermine feminism and pit women against each other, rather than out of any concern for the Israeli women who were raped. I don't find that particularly helpful.

From the link in the OP for example:
Even Women’s Place UK, once viewed as an outlier for its brave campaigning for women-only spaces, decided to call for an “immediate ceasefire” without mentioning sexual violence.

Why would a group calling for a ceasefire need to mention sexual violence? If a group decides they think a ceasefire is the right course of action, the most likely way to achieve that is to almost make an "amnesty" and not mention atrocities on either side. It seems unnecessarily judgmental of the charity to say that.

And why anyone on here thinks LOJ represents any kind of POV worth listening to I don't know. The man is a raging misogynist and not really relevant in any way to feminist thought

@AdamRyan from their webpage. So vocal about certain feminist issues but not others?

That's hardly neutral is it? No neutrality. Or perhaps they just haven't posted how they feel about this sexual violence?

Sisters Uncut are a dreadful organisation that supported a man who physically assaulted a woman. They are not feminists.

A clear parallel would be the kidnapping of schoolgirls in Nigeria by Boko Haram. 276 were kidnapped in 2014 and many still haven't been returned, I seem to recall there was concern about a lack of action internationally on that too.

Boko Haram have been using the girls for prisoner swaps

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/04/nine-years-after-chibok-girls-abducted/

Human beings (mostly male ones) are just disgusting really

I'm nothing to do with sisters uncut, other than being aware of them as a feminist group

Looking at their Web page, they are pro Palestine, pro ceasefire and they explain why here

https://www.sistersuncut.org/2023/11/02/arent-palestinians-women-too/

There is a dimension about White Feminism and race angles that I really don't feel qualified to comment on.

I don't think you can extrapolate from one feminist group with a very clear pro Palestine stance to say that "feminists aren't supporting Jewish women" or #metoounlessURajew
That's what I'm taking issue with.

It just gets polarised into which sides women are having a worse time otherwise

LOJ is a Guardian columnist? He's a powerful 'journalist' in the media, like it or not, and as ridiculous as it is that someone who is so misogynistic can have this position of power in a major national newspaper, here we are.

When someone has such a huge platform, what he's said and done can't just be dismissed.

What children are taught in Palestinian schools:

March 2023 - https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/

Nov 2021 - https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/05/unrwa-palestine-israel-refugees-united-states-funding-corruption-education/

From 9 years ago:

April2023 - https://www.newsweek.com/your-tax-dollars-are-being-used-teach-hate-opinion-1796318

Doesn't look like they’re being taught what peaceful coexistence is…

Hilary Clinton speaks via video at the UN event.

Rape as a weapon of war is a crime against humanity. It is outrageous that some who claim to stand for justice are closing their eyes and their hearts to the victims of Hamas”.

twitter.com/Israel/status/1732114273369743769?t=oMaavf-V2-DKu7QIlk9xcQ&s=19

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

BBC News, front page, now.

CONTENT WARNING: Extreme graphic descriptions of rape and abuse and torture.

That is a very, very hard article to read.

'"It really feels like Hamas learned how to weaponise women's bodies from ISIS [the Islamic State group] in Iraq, from cases in Bosnia," said Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy, a legal expert at the Davis Institute of International Relations at Hebrew University.'

I'm sceptical about the reasoning there. In the case of Hamas, rape wasn't used to impregnate women because it murdered so many of them afterwards.

If you read Christina Lamb's book, Our Bodies, Their Battlefield, which is about the use of rape in war, again, a lot of the time it's clear that rape isn't being used just to impregnate women, though it is in some cases. Many of the rapes - some with sharp implements - are so vicious they leave women permanently in pain and/or incompetent.

In those cases, it seems to me, men are raping women because they hate them.

'Israel's police chief Yaacov Shabtai said that many survivors of the attacks were finding it difficult to talk and that he thought some of them would never testify about what they saw or experienced.
"18 young men and women have been hospitalised in mental health hospitals because they could no longer function," he said.
Others are reportedly suicidal. One of those working with the teams around survivors told the BBC that some had already killed themselves.
Much of the evidence has come from the volunteer body-collectors deployed after the attacks, and those who handled the bodies once they arrived at the Shura army base for identification.'

From the BBC report. Owen Jones, I hope you fucking read it.

Why has it taken the BBC two months to actually report on the horrendous details of this? All of this has been in the public domain since the start of the war. It is like all of a sudden people have had to be reminded that Hamas did some incredibly inhuman and evil things. Of course the BBC, as ever, is saying " the BBC is yet to verify this" - as if it is the arbiter of reality.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181