Page 25 | Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

ArthurbellaScott · 2023-11-18T09:31:06+00:00

[[https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/]] I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account. The rest of it I think is an important read.

Trulywonderful · 04/12/2023 20:56

I don't know where he has heard this but he is most likely right.

It makes me shiver and what to throw up

https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1731743740618846332

quantumbutterfly · 04/12/2023 21:04

Lolapusht · 04/12/2023 20:07

I think that part of why evidence hadn’t been collated was that the attack was just so overwhelming. 000s of terrorists attack your country. They torture, rape, kill and kidnap men, women and children effectively starting a war against you. You’re immediately on the defensive against an opponent you thought you knew, but it soon becomes apparent just how murderous they actually are. You see what atrocities have been carried out and try to work out how many have been killed and how many have been kidnapped but you can’t because in some cases the remains are unidentifiable. Before you can even gather yourself to rescue your people, the international voices are supporting your attackers while piling hate and disbelief on your protests. It’s your fault the terrorists attacked. It’s your fault your children were murdered. It’s your fault your women were raped. You’re breaking international law by engaging your attackers. Everything you’ve said about the terrorists turns out to be true but instead of backing you, the world demands more evidence and continues to demand a ceasefire knowing fine well that the terrorists won’t stick to it and if you out down your guns you will be killed. You’ve somehow become responsible for the civilians on the other side of the war you didn’t start. Every death is amplified and used as a stick to berate you with, even though the terrorists still have your people as hostages, the fact that their release would result in an immediate end to (your) hostilities is ignored.

You’re fighting a war with little to no international support. Your adversary has publicly said the attack was a rehearsal and they’ll do it again. They’ve enmeshed themselves in the civilian population who they use as shields so you have no option but to destroy buildings in civilian areas. You issue warnings and tell the people where you’re going to fire (what other war did one side tell the people they were trying to destroy when and where they would attacks?!). The world does not listen to what happened to your people. Most of the victims have died and those who haven’t are too traumatised to bear witness. Your entire country is traumatised. In amongst all of that you have to conduct 1200 forensic investigations. No-one should experience what was done to the victims. I can only surmise that what those investigators witnessed was truly unimaginable. Nobody should be capable of imagining what was perpetrated on those people.

So, in that framework, yes, evidence will have been missed. In an ideal world it wouldn’t be, but we’re no longer living in an ideal world. Hamas destroyed that on 7 October. Ideally, all those who committed the violence, sexual or otherwise, would be brought to trial with documented evidence that would secure their convictions. I honestly don’t think they deserve a trial. I have a legal background, would describe myself as a middle of the road liberal who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and who thinks death penalty is abhorrent. Those bastards deserve no consideration and should be summarily eliminated.

I can’t even waste energy being disgusted with the ICRC and the UN.

I agree.

HagoftheNorth · 04/12/2023 21:30

Trulywonderful · 04/12/2023 20:56

I don't know where he has heard this but he is most likely right.

It makes me shiver and what to throw up

https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1731743740618846332

I imagine that is true

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 21:53

@HagoftheNorth imagine knowing that as a hostages family. It makes me feel unable to sleep let alone them.

EdithStourton · 05/12/2023 08:23

Trulywonderful · 04/12/2023 20:56

I don't know where he has heard this but he is most likely right.

It makes me shiver and what to throw up

https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1731743740618846332

Given what was done to some of those girls on camera, I have been really troubled by how they will have been treated in captivity.

HagoftheNorth · 05/12/2023 09:27

Stomachameleon indeed. I think all of us who have actually engaged with this have thought about that, and have an understanding of how desperate Israel is to get its people home (plus a strong concern that Hamas will never allow the victims or their bodies to talk). Despite what some of our earlier visitors have suggested, I do think there are worse things than dying in a bombing raid - awful as it feels to say that.

pronounsbundlebundle · 05/12/2023 09:30

Lolapusht · 04/12/2023 20:07

I think that part of why evidence hadn’t been collated was that the attack was just so overwhelming. 000s of terrorists attack your country. They torture, rape, kill and kidnap men, women and children effectively starting a war against you. You’re immediately on the defensive against an opponent you thought you knew, but it soon becomes apparent just how murderous they actually are. You see what atrocities have been carried out and try to work out how many have been killed and how many have been kidnapped but you can’t because in some cases the remains are unidentifiable. Before you can even gather yourself to rescue your people, the international voices are supporting your attackers while piling hate and disbelief on your protests. It’s your fault the terrorists attacked. It’s your fault your children were murdered. It’s your fault your women were raped. You’re breaking international law by engaging your attackers. Everything you’ve said about the terrorists turns out to be true but instead of backing you, the world demands more evidence and continues to demand a ceasefire knowing fine well that the terrorists won’t stick to it and if you out down your guns you will be killed. You’ve somehow become responsible for the civilians on the other side of the war you didn’t start. Every death is amplified and used as a stick to berate you with, even though the terrorists still have your people as hostages, the fact that their release would result in an immediate end to (your) hostilities is ignored.

You’re fighting a war with little to no international support. Your adversary has publicly said the attack was a rehearsal and they’ll do it again. They’ve enmeshed themselves in the civilian population who they use as shields so you have no option but to destroy buildings in civilian areas. You issue warnings and tell the people where you’re going to fire (what other war did one side tell the people they were trying to destroy when and where they would attacks?!). The world does not listen to what happened to your people. Most of the victims have died and those who haven’t are too traumatised to bear witness. Your entire country is traumatised. In amongst all of that you have to conduct 1200 forensic investigations. No-one should experience what was done to the victims. I can only surmise that what those investigators witnessed was truly unimaginable. Nobody should be capable of imagining what was perpetrated on those people.

So, in that framework, yes, evidence will have been missed. In an ideal world it wouldn’t be, but we’re no longer living in an ideal world. Hamas destroyed that on 7 October. Ideally, all those who committed the violence, sexual or otherwise, would be brought to trial with documented evidence that would secure their convictions. I honestly don’t think they deserve a trial. I have a legal background, would describe myself as a middle of the road liberal who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and who thinks death penalty is abhorrent. Those bastards deserve no consideration and should be summarily eliminated.

I can’t even waste energy being disgusted with the ICRC and the UN.

This is a great post, 100% right from my on-the-sidelines observation of what's happened and the media output.

And I think because of what @Lolapusht has so eloquently written, the way people in the west (and the media) who purport to want to help Palestinian civilians are behaving is more likely to result in Palestinian civilians being harmed. I think the useful idiots, like Owen Jones, are actually doing a lot of potential damage to civilians (on both sides) in the region.

Because I suspect that until now, Israel would have thought that an atrocity such as October 7th would have been met with universal condemnation not whataboutery from western democracies and the UN (maybe less so the UN). They would have believed that fundamentally, western democracies would be on their side, would believe they have a right to exist. This seems to be very much in danger, in the UK at least and I believe also in other countries.

As a PP said if Corbyn had been PM I don't think it could be guaranteed that he would support Israel's right to exist.

As we saw from the video clip upthread Palestinian voices against Hamas hiding among civilians are being silenced. And idiots like Owen Jones are willing to just take that at face value (but not the tortured dead woman with no underwear).

So if you were Israel what would you do? Given it seems antisemitism everywhere is on the rise, where is there to go if you give ground in Israel? Nowhere. What is the best course of action? It can only be to eradicate Hamas and send a strong message that Israel is strong and will defend itself. The actors in the region that seek Israel's elimination and elimination of all Jews are not 'woke' they're not into victim top trumps, they don't want any Jewish people to exist - that means torture and death of Jewish people like Anne Frank - not social ostracism (do the western idiots supporting Hamas understand this?) - they care about strength and are willing to use strength to gain power. Frankly, given what's transpired since Oct 7th I'm much more supportive of Israel taking a fairly hardline stance - to some extent it looks like they might not have another option.

Fortunately it seems that most senior politicians are aware of how dangerous this mindless pro-Palestine/ Hamas groupthink where people wholesale accept certain opinions as right without bothering to look into facts (for fear of ejection from the group) is for peace in the region, so let's hope there's still a chance of a peaceful solution. But the louder western democracy media output is about making the Jews the ones responsible for everything then I think the more hardline Israel is going to have to be. Because next time, it could be the senior politicians who are infected with the mindless groupthink and purity politics (most of them are with the craziness that men can be women) and they will be truly alone. That seems to be the direction of travel.

pronounsbundlebundle · 05/12/2023 09:45

Oh and also this bit is so important

Every death is amplified and used as a stick to berate you with, even though the terrorists still have your people as hostages, the fact that their release would result in an immediate end to (your) hostilities is ignored.

All they have to do is release all the hostages. Which is the right thing to do from every angle. The idea that people are willing to just ignore this I find mind blowing.

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 05/12/2023 09:51

I agree with a lot of these points.

But there has been (equivocal) support from some countries for Israel defending itself, including military support. I suspect that governments are not as vocal about it as usual, because of the tinderbox atmosphere. But there are UK planes aiding in efforts to find hostages, for example. US warships in the med, etc.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67579364

It's a horrible, horribly complicated situation. I honestly don't know how anyone can extricate anything resembling peace from such a mess. It's heartbreaking.

How can one separate out civilians, women and children, from Hamas?

OP posts:

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 05/12/2023 09:53

Plus to be more accurate, it's not just Hamas. Various other groups are equally murderous and anti semitic.

'All they have to do is release all the hostages.'

I don't know if that would stop Israel from their commitment to removing the threat of Hamas. Nor if it should. I honestly don't know how anyone rolls back from these kind of horrors.

OP posts:

AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 10:21

It can only be to eradicate Hamas and send a strong message that Israel is strong and will defend itself
Can I ask how you think Hamas can be eradicated when it seems to be impossible to distinguish between Hamas and non-Hamas Gazans? That's the bit I find difficult on these threads, because there are 2 million people in Gaza and the vast majority are not Hamas, yet they seem to be acceptable collateral damage.

stomachameleon · 05/12/2023 11:20

@ArthurbellaScott it would be a step in the right direction mind you if peace was the ultimate aim. Which it isn't.

@AdamRyan it may be unpalatable but there is a lot more support for Hamas from general populace than would be admitted.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/12/2023 12:20

There's a dreadful report in the Mail that, according to the the USA State Department, one of the reasons the ceasefire broke down is because Hamas refuses to release 10 women hostages because they'll reveal what's happened to them in captivity:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12826679/Hamas-refused-release-ten-female-hostages-not-want-women-reveal-subjected-held-captive.html

Hamas trying to hide treatment of ten female hostages

State Department spokesperson Matt Miller said the United States had 'no reason to doubt' reports of sexual violence by Hamas, but declined to share specific details on how women were treated

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12826679/Hamas-refused-release-ten-female-hostages-not-want-women-reveal-subjected-held-captive.html

IcakethereforeIam · 05/12/2023 12:31

I wonder if the support for hamas is actually being conflated with support for Palestinians. As far as that goes, I support the Palestinians, I don't want non- combatants, men, women, children, harmed. To be honest, I don't want anyone harmed. Fwiw, hamas broke the ceasefire. They fired rockets on Israel at least an hour before the deadline.

PorcelinaV · 05/12/2023 12:32

PorcelinaV · 21/11/2023 20:54

A couple of recent polls on Palestinian attitudes, with conflicting results. The first poll was from before the attack.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”

...

In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014.

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791

A total of 75% of respondents agreed with the October 7 attack and 74.7% agreed that they support a single Palestinian state “from the river to the sea.”

...

Palestinians living in the West Bank overwhelmingly answered that they supported the attack to either an extreme or “somewhat” extent (83.1%.) Only 6.9% answered that they were “extremely” or “somewhat” against the attack, and 8.4% expressed that they had no opinion either way.

Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip show a little less consensus but the overall majority supported the attack. A mass of 63.6% said that they supported the attack “extremely” or to a “somewhat” extent. A further 14.4% answered that they did not oppose or support the attack. Showing a greater rift than that of the West Bank, 20.9% of Palestinians living in Gaza opposed the attack to some degree.

Polling on Palestinian attitudes for anyone that didn't notice it earlier in the thread.

Of course there is still a difference between civilians and legitimate military targets.

PorcelinaV · 05/12/2023 12:42

I don't think it's easy to defeat Hamas or similar groups, although that doesn't mean there isn't justification to use military force.

What I wish was happening, is that there was more pressure against Islamist ideology in general. You don't wait until it turns violent. Islamism needs to be recognised as an extremist threat, and we need to have a close eye on groups and countries that spread it.

HagoftheNorth · 05/12/2023 12:50

MrsOverton, that’s awful, but I also wonder why Hamas would be saying that rather than just saying ‘sorry, they’re dead under the rubble, so we can’t give them back’. It’s another provocation isn’t it (while telling the UN there was no sexual violence)

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 05/12/2023 13:00

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-11-22/ty-article/.premium/three-quarters-of-palestinians-support-hamas-attack-on-october-7-says-new-poll-why/0000018b-f841-d473-affb-f9e9eeef0000

Yes, reports vary hugely on how much support there is/was for Hamas and their attack. Given various factors, I wonder how much people in Palestine are even aware of some of the atrocities carried out on October the 7th?

Three-quarters of Palestinians support Hamas’ attack on October 7, says new poll. Why?

***

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-11-22/ty-article/.premium/three-quarters-of-palestinians-support-hamas-attack-on-october-7-says-new-poll-why/0000018b-f841-d473-affb-f9e9eeef0000

OP posts:

AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 13:02

PorcelinaV · 05/12/2023 12:42

I don't think it's easy to defeat Hamas or similar groups, although that doesn't mean there isn't justification to use military force.

What I wish was happening, is that there was more pressure against Islamist ideology in general. You don't wait until it turns violent. Islamism needs to be recognised as an extremist threat, and we need to have a close eye on groups and countries that spread it.

What do you mean by "Islamism"? Wahhabism? Or Islam generally? Or what?

IcakethereforeIam · 05/12/2023 13:12

Hamas has been in control of Gaza for nearly twenty years. All of the young men involved in the 7th October attacks will have been raised under them. Feck knows what they've been taught, how they've been radicalised. Although you can get an idea from what they did.

It would take a brave person to push back against a prevailing extremist ideology that's in power and, in places, mandates the death sentence for blasphemy.

pickledandpuzzled · 05/12/2023 13:23

@AdamRyan I am not sure it’s possible to distinguish between Hamas and ‘ordinary Palestinians’.

Those filmed cheering and spitting on the abused body of the girl who’d been raped, were they ordinary Palestinians?

The parents of the man who rang home to brag about the number of Jews he’d killed, are they ordinary Palestinians?

I did see an ordinary Palestinian trying to express his anger at Hamas hiding among his neighbours and using them as a shield- the journalist he was speaking to couldn’t get away quick enough. I’d guess that journalist wasn’t an ‘ordinary Palestinian’. The man trudging down the road with his family, raging at Hamas’s callousness in starting this mess was an ‘ordinary Palestinian’.

Clearly some ordinary Palestinians are suffering, but unfortunately their government led an organised, coordinated, massive violent attack against their neighbour and continue to stand by their bestial actions.

AdamRyan · 05/12/2023 14:29

pickledandpuzzled · 05/12/2023 13:23

@AdamRyan I am not sure it’s possible to distinguish between Hamas and ‘ordinary Palestinians’.

Those filmed cheering and spitting on the abused body of the girl who’d been raped, were they ordinary Palestinians?

The parents of the man who rang home to brag about the number of Jews he’d killed, are they ordinary Palestinians?

I did see an ordinary Palestinian trying to express his anger at Hamas hiding among his neighbours and using them as a shield- the journalist he was speaking to couldn’t get away quick enough. I’d guess that journalist wasn’t an ‘ordinary Palestinian’. The man trudging down the road with his family, raging at Hamas’s callousness in starting this mess was an ‘ordinary Palestinian’.

Clearly some ordinary Palestinians are suffering, but unfortunately their government led an organised, coordinated, massive violent attack against their neighbour and continue to stand by their bestial actions.

So in that case people calling for "eradication of hamas" are by implication calling for the eradication of 2.5 million Palestinians?
i just find that absolutely shocking.....

turbonerd · 05/12/2023 14:38

I would assume that with a change of leadership there’d be a change of attitude in the general Palestinian population.

This could be wrong, but I would for the sake of humanity hope that most people, if presented with a government promoting peace and understanding between nations, would be less bloodthirsty.

The war in Sudan is following in the same old footsteps as what is being discussed here. Both warring parties are using rape and sexual abuse as tactics.
The difference, however, is that in the current conflict in the Middle East, only the palestinian attackers have used rape and sexual abuse and worse towards pregnant women. The Israelis have not

HagoftheNorth · 05/12/2023 14:39

Adam it’s pretty clear that Israel aren’t attempting to kill all Palestinians. I do think they’d have a good idea of Hamas’ command structure though, and I think it’s pretty reasonable to go after them - no?

pickledandpuzzled · 05/12/2023 14:49

About as shocking as ‘from the river to the sea…’?
Can you just remind me where you mentioned how shocking the attack on sleeping civilians was? How utterly shocking it is that 75% of Gaza’s civilians support those attacks? That Gaza coordinated, planned, trained for these atrocities?

The people of Gaza are in a desperate position. It’s tragic.

The people of Israel are trying to come to process having neighbours who stand by the October 7th attacks. They know the remaining hostages are likely still being abused. They know Hamas reopened rocket fire rather than continue the pause.

If you have a solution, do tag me in it on a thread which isn’t about feminism, rape and Israel.