What's going on with Genspect?

[MalagaNights]

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

Is isn't a No. It is a 'why not think about the reasons this doesn't exist'? Like we do when we analyse things? You know, using that scientific method that seems to have completely overlooked this area?

In terms of what age the malaga airport stuff starts, I watched some of a Menno YouTube yesterday about this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Transpositions-Personal-journeys-gender-criticism-ebook/dp/B0BMM5KGJR

And in it, the Malaga airport shenanigans are mentioned in respect of a 17 year old caught wanking into his mother's knickers and saying he likes to think of himself with breasts. He himself says that it is a fetish. So I guess it can start fairly young.

And yet the trans lobby seems to have convinced large numbers of people that "trans children" exist, despite there being no scientific evidence that children can be "really trans", or there even being a definition of what it means to be "really trans".

There is no scientific evidence that so called "trans children" are anything other than children who are gender nonconforming, children who will grow up to be gay, or children who are reacting to some kind of trauma or other difficulty in their lives.

That's without the fact there's a "method" for "eunuchgender". And people aligned to that who DO think they have carte blanche!

Sadists and paedophiles who were chemically castrated still had drives or urges but the treatment meant they were unable to release these through sex. This led in some cases to more violent acts. Which is why, as I understand it, its not recommended as 'treatment'.

Underlying most paraphilias is the drive for non consensual participation. And there is a distinction made in medicine between a fetish/paraphilia existing and being a disorder.

OK you got me.

The idea that pornography exposure is the cause of AGP is just as thoroughly well evidenced as the idea that some children are born innately trans. 😆

@BonfireLady I don't think anyone was mentioning removing genitalia as a solution.

I think you missed this:

Anne Lawrence suggested that AGP boys be identified young and be castrated as it would lead to better transition, whilst I don't think anyone here wants them to transition, there does seem to be some agreement over the castration element because that would stop the escalation in behaviour.

Identification of AGP boys could be around behaviour, such as stealing women's underwear or watching pornography (which some people earlier in the thread identified as the causes of AGP).

So not only should young boys have their bollocks cut off, but catching them on Pornhub is all the evidence needed to approve the surgery.

Great news for all those who have spent the last decade or so furiously opposing the medicalisation of children by the trans lobby.

Both positions are lacking in evidence. Are you agreeing with me that this is the case?

But what exactly do you mean by "born innately trans"?

There’s an entire chapter in WPATH’s Standards of Care devoted to males who desire having their bollocks chopped off that was written in conjunction with a man who hosts a private forum full of abusive pornographic material fantasising about boys having their bollocks chopped off.

So chopping off bollocks and porn are intrinsically woven into trans medical therapy. Literally written into their own guidelines.

That's really interesting @ArthurbellaScott . So chemically castrated paedophiles continue to sexuality offend children? Also, could you tell me, what is the distinction made in medicine between a fetish/paraphilia existing and being a disorder? And is there a difference between a fetish and a paraphilia?

The reason why we only offer psychological treatments to sex offenders is because castration, physical or chemical, doesn't take away the power / paraphilia part just the sexual urge. And most offending isn't driven by sexual urges but by power. So offending continues often using implements instead.
Presumably this can be generalised to agp when it is an offence rather than purely private as it were.

So one person mentioned it on one thread and you think everyone agrees with it?

This is fucking ridiculous.

Anyone can come on here and type words, it doesn't mean everyone automatically agrees with it.

It is fucking batshit to say we all want a range of boys castrated just to avoid them growing up into porn addled AGPs.

It is WPATH that want to create eunachs. Not users of Mumsnet. This is so fucking batshit.

The thing that should be explored is the idea that older boys are 'groomed' into AGP behaviour through porn and general acceptance. Would these boys always have become the adult agps, and awareness has just accelerated their behavior. Or are we creating them?

The majority of adolescent boys are drawn towards porn at some point. During this time, they are going to be pulled towards anything that turns them on. Those that are drawn towards the acronym at this time in their lives, for whatever reason (gaming, anime, feeling celebrated and cool instead of isolated and weird etc), are being spectacularly failed by society. The public ignorance, and inclusion and celebration, of this fetish is normalising it to a point where it's not even a thing to worry about. The main driver here has to be a combination of ignorance and a desire to be seen to be kind, not bigoted. So for the adolescent boy, crossing that boundary is going to presumably feel both exciting and OK.

All teenagers are going through emotional anguish and doubt at this age. Unfortunately this whole arena provides "answers" and a thrill at the same time.

Genspect has an opportunity to avoid the WPATH route of "treatment" for eunuchs or men identifying as women having their genitals removed because it is advocating for non-medicalised care. Instead, they have an opportunity to create a therapeutic approach to act as an intervention and course-correct those that are confusing their sexual thrill with an "identity".

I keep thinking back to a fellow parent from the "transparent network" I'm in at work. This parent got in touch with me for a private conversation after I said in the group conversation that I was concerned about the crossover with autism and gender identity being misunderstood with my daughter. I've posted about this previously but it's worth looping back and me reflecting on it again: the child in question is a 16 year old male, referred to at home with female pronouns, is heterosexual (not how it was said to me - "has told me she's a lesbian" were the actual words) and autistic. The son was very much in to anime and has played gaming as a female for a while. At the time when we spoke, the son was on the verge of starting cross-sex hormones. The parents are divorced and both households are affirming their child's female identity. It makes me sad to think that this child could be very much in this cohort and that the parents could simply have no idea. I passed on what I could, diplomatically of course, and left it that I was always happy to continue the conversation if needed. I didn't mention anything specifically about fetish, instead I signposted to a very good gender therapy book that is written by two Tavistock whistleblowers that covers the basics of gender dysphoria in males, as that didn't feel appropriate and I was still very early on in having any real understanding of the male side of gender dysphoria. I've since seen the parent on LGBT+ calls at work trying to learn more about the whole thing from an affirmation perspective, so as to be a supportive parent.

@EatMyHead you're right that I did possibly miss one user saying that this was their opinion. I had taken their comment to be a misunderstanding of a consensus of opinion, rather than a statement of their own opinion. I'll let the poster pick that one up for clarification directly if they want to do so.
There is definitely no consensus of opinion in this thread that genital removal is a desirable solution to stopping a potential fetish from escalating. Stating that this shows the depravity of MN is unfounded and disingenuous.

This makes sense, thank you.
I was reading what @ArthurbellaScott said and couldn't quite understand it. This brings everything together and goes back to previous explanations about narcissism being linked to paraphilias: the need to satiate the urge to have control and power.

A timely new article from Michael Bailey yesterday. It's about detransition in general but here's a quote on this specific issue:

An additional complication is distinguishing between natal males with autogynephilic gender dysphoria and natal males whose gender dysphoria results from ROGD, as we have described it. To family members and friends, autogynephilic gender dysphoria may appear sudden, because the autogynephilic person has probably neither appeared gender nonconforming nor discussed sexual fantasies with them.

And..

Autogynephilic gender dysphoria is indicated if a natal male admits being sexually aroused by cross-dressing or by the idea of having the body of a woman. ROGD is indicated for a natal female if childhood-onset gender dysphoria is absent, a rapid adolescent or young adult onset is evident. (The application of ROGD to natal males is more problematic, due to the possibility that males with apparently rapid onset have autogynephilia.) Additionally, evidence of social influences (e.g., experience with peers or social media advocating transgender identification) is more consistent with ROGD than either of the other two types.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-023-02716-1

Thanks for the link to that article @BonfireLady 👍

Yes! Thanks for this Bonfirelady!

Thanks for that @Boomboom22 can I ask why is there such intense focus on paedophilia/autogynephilia/xyz when actually the focus, it seems, should be on power and sadism? It doesn't make sense at all.

Also surely the most effective treatment would be if these men were (+voluntarily) chemically castrated plus had treatment for their sadism and power ?

@OldCrone Both positions are lacking in evidence. Are you agreeing with me that this is the case?

Yes.

Where did I say everyone agrees with it?

BonfireLady said she didn't think ANYONE had mentioned removing genitalia as a solution. I simply pointed out that someone had.

I agree that WPATH's cavalier attitude towards surgery on children is abominable. I also agree that the vast majority of gender critical people would naturally oppose it and be horrified by it. To see someone circle round to the same attitude from the GC perspectives just because it's justified in their mind by their visceral hatred of male perverts, is equally horrifying.

There is no treatment if they already understand their behaviour is wrong and choose to do it anyway. Maybe being in a good relationship and turning back time so they had better parents. Treatment only works on those who want it/ have no insight themselves, much like therapy.

During this interview Boyce asks Dr Az about the Genspect Debacle and Az tells him that the Trans shield allows men to carry out a fetish in public. Boyce tries to get Az to define the difference between a person’s sexuality and a perversion (I don’t think Boyce gets the answer he seems to want).

It’s very interesting to hear Az state the facts, plainly.

There is another thread with this conversation on it. Apologies that I'm repeating myself a little from my comment on that thread.

I may need to listen to that part of the interview again to make sure I have the same take on it as I did the first time @UtopiaPlanitia I did like the bit about the fetish being performed in public - definitely not the response BB was expecting by the look on his face. But the question that followed was even more interesting IMO.

When BB asked about whether anyone with a perversion could be helped and I found the answer "you can't change anyone's sexuality" quite dismissive and lacking in any depth when it comes to helping adolescent and young adult males.

The majority of vocal and active TRAs seem to be the Malaga Airport type, including several that are relatively young (early 20s to mid 20s). They arguably represent a larger group than those males where they have "transed away the gay". I suspect that a number of them are autistic, given 48% of Tavistock referrals are autistic, and that this has an impact on how they interpret their emerging sexuality in early adolescence. Many autistic boys will be relatively isolated IRL and will be doing their socialising online. The line between seeing themselves as a woman online and IRL may easily get blurred if they game as females, like many do. The "skins" (as they are called in the gaming world) for females are generally much more interesting to look at. Unsurprisingly, the female characters in these games, like Fortnite, are very idealised in their body shape. If I understood this part of the conversation correctly, according to Dr Az "perversion" seems to be innate, as a sexuality. He's the psychology expert, not me, but I'm not sure he's fully looking at the impact of autism and external influences like gaming and anime on this specific cohort.

I would like to hope that an adolescent boy who is being pulled in this direction, through his own sexual fantasy and confusion about the difference between online and IRL, could be helped to see that this is not a healthy approach to follow. Hopefully early intervention through therapy could stop a full-blown development in to Malaga Airport. This would have been a more full answer to BB's question. I can well imagine that there is a point of no return, when this fetish is fully baked in. But there surely must be a stage where someone could be helped and course-corrected.

Re gaming and autism, it's my experience that for some children for whom real life social interaction is challenging, gaming is more accessible, and to a point predictable, more structured and repetitive, which is helpful for them . All elements that are easier to access than real life.

Echolalia is a common autistic trait; I've taught some children who live out the games they play and use phrases etc.