What's going on with Genspect?

[MalagaNights]

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

I found that episode very informative, thanks for posting about it. Dr Az has a great way of explaining things in easily understandable terms. I’m definitely buying his book after Xmas. A lot of this was very relevant to Genspect.

Until listening to this, I wasn’t aware that Clive had worked as a nurse in the mental health field - his perspective was very interesting too.

Here’s a link to the episode for anyone else who’s interested in listening:
https://overcast.fm/+BDqteL6y7c

Yes great podcast thanks

In a weird case of coincidence @UtopiaPlanitia, I was returning to this thread to talk about Dr Az now that I've finished his book.

A PP had mentioned (forgive me, I can't remember who) that he's particularly good at explaining gender identity and autism in relation to boys. I would agree. I do think there are some bits missing, but it's well worth a read as it very clearly differentiates the acronym people (heterosexual, fetish) from those that are more likely to grow up as gay men if watchful waiting is applied. I would add the following to what he says (he does mention anime/gaming but as more of a footnote):

Boys
When boys are socially isolated, particularly those that are autistic, many are drawn towards a more accessible way of socialising: gaming. During adolescence, their sexuality emerges. Purely on stats, the majority will be heterosexual. Seeing sexy female avatars in games like Fortnite can be an early introduction to feeling turned on during this. Some may already have discovered anime and may already be blurring the real world and fantasy world in this way. Autism adds the layer of "baking in". If a boy uses a female avatar and feels turned on (highly likely, given how 13 and 14 year old boys are... just ask any "non-girly" teenage girl who suddenly sees their boy friends change from being adventurous buddies into a totally different persona who seem obsessed with the pretty girls), some will not be able to, or possibly not want to, separate this feeling from reality. Dr Az does talk about detransitioners who didn't know they had the acronym, who go on to have surgery, and totally lose their libido afterwards. The cruelty here is that they didn't understand that it was all about sex because of the rainbow celebration and conflation with the "born in the wrong body, would grow up to be gay" types. Obviously some of these boys would not have "bottom surgery" and are likely to become tomorrow's escalating and dangerous acronym people. Understanding the patterns and differences is essential to giving them the right approach in therapeutic treatment. The acronym/narcissist type need to be understood and managed as a risk, very much like any other paraphilia.
Interestingly, Stella did a chapter in the book and she talks about the acronym being unfairly stigmatised.... It's fair to say that what she said in the YouTube conversation is VERY different from this. It sounds like she's been on an important journey of thinking. To be fair, so have I. I haven't lost compassion for boys who would otherwise grow up gay, nor do I think that autistic boys who are caught up in the avatar/anime world are on an inevitable pathway to becoming tomorrow's acronym. Obviously none of these people belong in women's spaces, and it's not "women's problem" to solve etc. BUT many women are mums to boys who are caught up in this. Perhaps Stella was gaslighting everyone with her shifting narrative (this has been levelled at her) or perhaps she was just saving face and trying to hide her pivot from what she said in the book to what she said in the YouTube conversation about the acronym. She's a human being and she's a curious psychologist - she's following what she learns and adapting her approach as a result of this. I'm not interested in pointing fingers. I'm more interested in how this will unfold to help boys who are victims of this as well as protecting the rights of women and girls.

Girls
He talks about social contagion, autism and trauma but completely misses the traumatic impact of sensory issues, such as breast development and periods, with autistic girls during puberty and the way that this feeds in to the mix. This thread isn't about that so I'll leave it there, with a couple of links in case it's of interest to anyone:
https://twitter.com/BonfireLady/status/1697126765687099612?t=7_e-yZYZUgKG1s_WPjS4CQ&s=19

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenage-gender-identity-crisis/

Conclusion
Perhaps it's coming in book 3 but a deeper dive in to autism and gender identity is warranted. His main clinical interest seemed to be with males who adopt a female gender identity, which is definitely helpful, particularly in understanding more about the acronym and who will/could likely go on to detransition versus those that just need management as a danger. But given the 5000% increase in girls presenting with gender dysphoria and the fact that 48% of all referrals are autistic, he's skimming over a significant number of victims in this medical scandal.

Obviously some of these boys would not have "bottom surgery" and may to become tomorrow's escalating and dangerous acronym people.

Correcting myself (italics). Hopefully my post doesn't get deleted.
MNHQ if you need to delete it, please can you let me know if I can repost it with the correction above.

You're way off base @BonfireLady Stella doesn't shift her narrative in Az Hakeem's book. I've literally just read that chapter. She writes about detransitioners.

Do we have any knowledge of what ages the dangerous stuff kicks in? And what dangerous behaviour starts at what ages?

@Georgeburgess it's possible that you're right but it's difficult to tell from the way that she wrote it. If you substitute the acronym word for any other paraphilia it's very odd. Is there any such thing as a reformed paedophile, for example? I suspect not and paedophilia is rightfully stigmatised. The grey area on the acronym word is that there will be some adolescent boys, turned on by avatars in fantasy worlds etc, who don't realise that the lines are blurring in their minds. To put it bluntly, they are too busy thinking with the second brain that lives in their underwear to spend any time bothering to care. I would absolutely agree that these people don't deserve to be lumped in and stigmatised with the fully-formed adult version of the acronym if they desist or detransition.

@MowingTheTerf my guess would be that the turning point would probably be late teens or early twenties. By 18, males should have enough maturity to responsibly handle their libido in respect of this if they choose to do so. I think a deep dive in to this whole area by someone like Dr Az would be very useful. Autistic boys are more likely to be socially isolated than neurotypical boys, so may (I'm guessing) feel more drawn towards staying in this world and they are more likely to have a slower emotional maturity.. I'm guessing again but presumably if you stay in it, and enjoy the turn on, you're more susceptible to escalating to the next step that will give the same turn on. Disclaimer: I'm no fetish expert and nor do I ever want to be!

Photos below of what Stella wrote (blue highlighted paragraph across two pages)

Yes that's the point, @BonfireLady, Stella is talking about AGP detransitioners, this is NOT the same as active AGPs. They gave no sex drive, for example.

I meant they have no sex drive.

So it's like comparing chemically castrated paedophiles with chemically castrated AGPs.

It's difficult to know exactly what she meant because some detransitioners will have retained their male genetalia.

Logically, acronym people who are detransitioners wouldn't have their male genitalia any more: presumably while they still retain male genitalia, the urge to satisfy a fetish need would still be there (so logically they wouldn't ever become detransitioners unless they have their genitalia removed). Basically, what you're saying above @Georgeburgess
However, none of this seems particularly clear in what she says in this chapter.

Nor is it clear what the typical acronym risk escalation (or de-escalation via genital removal) profile looks like for adolescent boys as they grow in to adulthood, particularly so where the impact of autism is also a factor.
This is an area that needs much more of a deep dive. Hopefully it's something that Stella and the Genspect team will focus on for the framework off the back of all of this recent discussion. In the absence of decent data from gender clinics, they may be able to assume some patterns from known principles about paraphilias, and the intersection with other co-morbiditities such as autism, to help with this understanding.

'Gender diversity' is doing a lot of work in that paragraph.

Men who have AGP arent gender diverse, they are performing something only men have - being sexually excited at the thought of themselves as women, being sexually excited at the idea of forcing others to see them as women, and being sexually excited by being in womens spaces and wearing womens clothes.

How does working towards true gender diversity solve any of the problems these men have and cause?

It also widely acknowledged that these men tend to binge on their AGP, then swear to themselves never to do it again, only to binge yet again. Can these men ever 'detransition'. Stella is setting people up to include these men as detransitioners, when really they are just between agp binges.

Anne Lawrence suggested that AGP boys be identified young and be castrated as it would lead to better transition, whilst I don't think anyone here wants them to transition, there does seem to be some agreement over the castration element because that would stop the escalation in behaviour.

Identification of AGP boys could be around behaviour, such as stealing women's underwear or watching pornography (which some people earlier in the thread identified as the causes of AGP).

If all the scrotes who watch pornography were castrated I wonder how many we'd have left intact.

Nice to see some both practical and enlightened solutions being offered. Perhaps we could go back to chopping off the hands of thieves while we're at it.

Mumsnet at its worst really is a cesspit of human depravity.

I find it hard to accept that paraphilias are innate though. It feels like a slippery slope pushing societal acceptance. And I won’t accept paraphilias, especially public ones, and harmful ones.

We all know that adult AGPs need the concept of child AGPs to exist - to affirm their identity. Ditto the tran identified adults who need trans children to exist to affirm their identities.

Like the MAP movement in some academic circles which seeks to rebrand being sexually attracted to children as something that is innate, cannot be helped and is deserving of nothing but sympathy, so the idea of AGP being innate is a slippery slope IMO.

TL;DR Anne Lawrence can hardly be relied upon to offer an impartial take on the concept of kids having sexual fetishes.

We all know that adult AGPs need the concept of child AGPs to exist - to affirm their identity.

Exactly.

We always been aware of adult men dressing as women for sexual gratification. We have always been aware of young boys liking dressing up, either because of play or just liking something about items of clothing.

What is recent is that we've named these two distinct groups (agp and gnc boys) and included them both under the trans umbrella. Of course adult men will use children to justify their behaviour and claim its innate.

The thing that should be explored is the idea that older boys are 'groomed' into AGP behaviour through porn and general acceptance. Would these boys always have become the adult agps, and awareness has just accelerated their behavior. Or are we creating them?

The thing that should be explored is the idea that older boys are 'groomed' into AGP behaviour through porn and general acceptance. Would these boys always have become the adult agps, and awareness has just accelerated their behavior. Or are we creating them?

I think they have been created. As much as there has always been transvestism, porn (especially sissy porn, and sissy hypno porn) has created AGP men in vast numbers.

Timely tweet from Genevieve Gluck tonight:

So is there any actual evidence that AGP is caused by exposure to pornography?

What do you think would happen to anyone wanting to actually carry out this study to determine whether this is true or not?

The mantra amongst TRAs is that AGP doesn’t exist.

Imagine the furore if someone tried to draw a link between porn and AGP. AGP doesn’t exist. Rinse and repeat.

So no then?

Last I looked, scientific method doesn't mean you have carte blanche to assume whatever confirms your prejudices is true, just because there might be political problems involved in gathering the data to prove whether it actually is.

I'm sorry, where are you seeing agreement here that children can have fetishes or that any child should be castrated?

Anne Lawrence did indeed say that. On that occasion, SoM and SA did at least have the decency to put a (weak) disclaimer in their description:

The end of the conversation took an unexpected turn when she described mindset, the intensity and the desperate measures that seem so reasonable when you’re tortured with severe autodynephellia. For the record Anne has not been involved in the field for many years and her reflections do not encompass the ROGD phenomenon. Tella and I feel it's important to listen to ppls exp so we can understand all the manifestations of gd. However we believe in the power of therapeutic intervention and we don’t think a nihilistic approach is helpful to deeply distressed individuals.

Absolutely no one should be even mentioning castration as a potential "solution" to agp or any other issue.

What a complete mess the therapeutic and medical community have gotten themselves into. "Gender" doctors, surgeons, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, psychotherapists have all failed children and adults, some because they are in thrall to the ideology, some because they want the money, and lots just seem to lack any kind of professional curiosity.

I don't think anyone was mentioning removing genitalia as a solution.
Sadly there are boys who are choosing this themselves (it's not an informed choose at all, given the bias in the care pathway) as part of their "gender affirming care".
The outcome then being that their sex drive drops. Dr Az has called out this group in his book because there are enough detransitioners who meet this description to be of notable significance. They will differ from the detransitioners who have realised that they are gay men, because both groups are driven to transition for totally different reasons, so would need a different therapeutic approach to help them.

Hopefully enough is known already about the links of animé and gaming avatars to start to unpick this, without a study in to the impact of porn being needed. I agree @AlisonDonut , that kind of a study is not going to be proposed any time soon (if indeed ever). I presume in the early days of a link between smoking and cancer being proposed there would have been a danger in proposing any studies, given the amount of money that is made in the tobacco industry. The difficulty with the acronym is that it's unclear what scale this is on. Certainly not on the scale of smoking but notable enough to be an identifiable cohort. I'm assuming a critical mass of detransitioners calling this out would be needed for any kind of study to be proposed in the first place.