Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

@AlphaTransWoman IB got 8 years, so in just 4 years time they could strolling into a ladies toilet near you. So I repeat if we let you in how do we keep Isla out?

Bonus question while we are on a roll
You think you would still be trans on robot island but how about Afghanistan? Are you so much a 'woman' you would take a bullet to the head for trying to get an education or do you think you might just decide you were a man after all when someone takes away the freedoms and the make up?

Probably got a fresh box of tissues and no longer suffering from cramp in the dominant arm.

At least tech makes typing with one hand easier these days.

It changes insofar as if things unfortunately (from my point of view) were to go way I would probably become a bit of a recluse, avoiding social spaces like pubs, restaurants etc to get the risk of having to use a single sex toilet as close as possible to zero. If necessary I probably would wet myself (not a nice thought, but at least it's not a crime) to avoid them. Or I would emigrate as soon as possible.

well, for that full submissive woman experience you could always do what women did before we won the right to have our own public toilets. Stay home. All the time.

I mean, if most women I know will risk wetting themselves by waiting in the huge queues that are sometimes our reality for toilets or trying to find one clean enough in a place you don't know .... and still not use male toilets or the disabled toilets.

Imagine that!

And I am sure no woman needs to be reminded just how pregnancy impacts your bladder control during and for ever more. Something no male ever has to worry about.

And of course, as said up thread, we cannot just 'hold' flooding periods.

Yet this male poster seems to expect sympathy for their plight and for us to turn around and say, 'there there, you should most definitely use the female toilets then'. The fuckwittery on this thread is blindingly clear.

Wonders if they've ever heard of the urinary leash?

For a woman having a 'feminine' body is experienced from the inside; for a man it can only be understood or 'read' from the outside.

For a man a female body is an assemblage of body parts with certain kinds of symbolic characteristics; but for a woman her body is literally an embodied psycho-social lived reality with an intimacy and an understanding that simply cannot be approximated by dressing up or even by external body modifications.

We are not separate from our bodies, even when we feel alienated from them. A body is not just a 'meat suit' ( Mary Harrington) or a role play costume.

"It changes insofar as if things unfortunately (from my point of view) were to go way I would probably become a bit of a recluse, avoiding social spaces like pubs, restaurants etc to get the risk of having to use a single sex toilet as close as possible to zero."

In your ideal world I would remind you that there is no such thing as a single sex toilet, any and all men who wished to could be in the ladies alongside you. That women should 'just' avoid social spaces, sports and activities is precisely what is routinely suggested for women but this isn't is a reasonable or proportionate accommodation to expect.

1000 women should stay home so I don't have to is not a reasonable position.

No boiled. Because that would not fit the fluffy stereotype would it? No one wants to hear about women’s needs and their health conditions that require them to need privacy in the female single sex spaces.

And that is not even covering the number of people with disabilities being inconvenienced and ‘pissing’ themselves because of someone’s life decisions to not use the toilet and single sex spaces designed for them and meant for ALL their sex to use. I think though we are supposed to be very sympathetic.

I think though we are supposed to be very sympathetic.

@Helleofabore I'm sure we are!

Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

@howdoesatoastermaketoast

To be fair to me, in my ideal world, all toilets would be fully enclosed, including individual washbasins. So they could all be unisex and nobody would care.

For what it's worth I think that a man desiring a female body always has its roots in the sexual drive; either through the heterosexual instinctive urge for pursuit and procreation; for a man with homosexual orientation through a desire to be the 'receptive' bottom or to be loved by a man in the way that he perceives a woman would be loved by a man; or for a man who has become so consumed by his own desire that he desires to become himself the object of that lust.

The male sexual urge tends to be quite different to the female sexual urge, with a tendency to manifest in more obviously fetishistic ways.

Except for epilepsy suffers.

<Considers dumping all the many reasons why unisex provision helps men who won't respect female spaces but doesn't work for anyone else.>

<Seriously can't be buggered any more because wtf is the point, it's not like this is a conversation or going anywhere other than entertainment>

I agree to an extent. Certainly changes to one's body undertaken voluntarily in one's 40s are going to feel very different to those that happen in puberty whether you want them to or not. So in that sense trans women can never be women, although I would suggest we are something other than men - my body is no longer fully "male" in appearance.

But even then there would be an external corridor in which women and men would have to interact. Even this is, for many women, an uncomfortable experience; and in the night time economy would potentially be an unsafe experience too.

Women use toilets for reasons other than just emptying the bladder, and they want to be able to send their daughters in too - without concern.

So they could all be unisex and nobody would care.

Lots of us would care very much. I hate unisex toilets. Why shouldn't we have female-only toilets if that's what most of us want?

Ohh good @AlphaTransWoman you are back so Taliban girl mode or boy mode. Your choice which is it?

<and reflects that anyone who actually cared rather than was entertaining themselves showing women their place would know about the unisex issues anyway, because it's not like women haven't repeatedly shared them. And anyone 'interested in discussing' nice and reasonably would have bothered to actually inform themselves first.>

Perhaps there's another possibility here? Someone born male who is attracted to women might want to be loved by a woman in the way they perceive a woman might love another, more submissive, woman. If you're looking to describe this in terms of a sexual drive, would that be a valid option?

But you are still talking about how it appears from the outside. I don't think it is possible to really understand the deeply intimate experience of living in the opposite sexed body. That is why when many TW talk about their experienece it often seems entirely superficial and based on stereotypical and imagined characteristics.

It certainly isn't female in function. It is the function of female bodies that are important not the look.

Oh for fucks' sake. Take your submissive lesbian fantasy and park it elsewhere, please. Grossly offensive.

I don't think it is a matter of 'submissiveness'. I think that may be a projection of a more masculine drive.

What do you mean by submissive?

I have deliberately not put a pumpkin out this year.